Black-Tiger posted: Then he went for "style" over realism. Try cutting your arm off and let's see if you just go, "Ugh". Maybe he did this so as to not scare little baby in his/her cot, 'cause that's obviously what the PT was aimed at. You evidently haven't watched many movies. You also obviously aren't very demanding of the movies you do watch.
Black-Tiger posted: You know, I don't really care how you spell his name. A good actor would've made a good job of Lucas' tacky script, just as Hamill, Ford, Fisher and co. did. I was under the same impression as you are, that his crap wooden acting was all down to Lucas' novice writing skills and directing, but after seeing him in "Jumper", where he stunk there too, I decided that the blame can't all be down to Lucas.
Black-Tiger posted:Even Special Forces troops would scream if something like that happened to them!
Black-Tiger posted:Er, I too have seen thousands of films, from films made during WWII to contemporary films. I've even studied them.
Black-Tiger posted:Let's just say we both have totally different ideas of what makes a good film because our brains are wired up differently, uh?
d_arblay posted:Black-Tiger posted:Let's just say we both have totally different ideas of what makes a good film because our brains are wired up differently, uh? Agreed. I already said pretty much that 2 posts earlier. I just don't understand how you're a Star Wars fan if what you're into is completely literal, gritty, adult-themed movies. But nevermind - lets move on (are these the best smileys we can do?) :P
Black-Tiger posted:Easy, The Empire Strikes Back! With A New Hope close behind that is the ultimate example of excellent film making. No slapstick, no crumby acting, excellent music and atmoshpere, great characters, great dialogue and great plot. Nope, can't find a single thing wrong with it! Perfect, 100%!
d_arblay posted:Black-Tiger posted:Easy, The Empire Strikes Back! With A New Hope close behind that is the ultimate example of excellent film making. No slapstick, no crumby acting, excellent music and atmoshpere, great characters, great dialogue and great plot. Nope, can't find a single thing wrong with it! Perfect, 100%! Well I almost agree with you there. ANH is completely flawless to me. Could stand alone as a great movie. Its by far the best of the Star Wars movies. But therein lies the rub. I don't know if its the best Star Wars Movie. Now that sounds odd I know but thats my opinion. You either get it or you dont. I don't think ESB is flawless. But we are agreed - ANH and ESB are the best of the 6. However, I love the whole saga - something you dont. I feel sorry for you in that regard. Maybe you're missing things that I am. Maybe I'm missing things that you're not. Nevermind. I look at it as one big film really - ESB and ANH are just chapters of it. They may be the best but they are made so much better by the chapters around them. My only concern is that perhaps, when they first came out, you watched both of these films through a child's eyes. I'm only speculating so forgive me if I'm wrong, but from what my instinct tells me, I would guess you are idealising them in comparison to the others purely for this factor alone. What you put down as "great dialogue" and "no crumby acting" is perhaps a romanticised view at best. Children of the 70's and 80's remember them as that because rarely do people question their tastes from days gone by without a very powerful thing called sentimentality. But in reality there is a lot of hokey dialogue and acting in the original trilogy (Harrison Ford: "you can type this shit but you can't say it"). Ask any kid, or even adult, who watches the films for the first time 1-6 which two are their favourite films, you will rarely see any of them say ANH and ESB. I think its important, for whichever time we grew up in, that we stay objective in our opinions. What wont help is being nit-picky about things such as Anakin's reactions to his arm being cut-off. Like I said, its my least favourite of the movies. But not for reasons like that. Then again, thats a different discussion for a different time....
Black-Tiger posted: What makes you think I'm that old?
Black-Tiger posted:Yeah, I was a kid when I first watched the OT, as well as ROTJ, but that was on VHS. When I was a kid I loved ROTJ, including the EWOKS! But as I grew up I grew out of furry teddy bears. I also saw all the shortcomings in the script and dialogue, something I've never seen in ANH nor ESB. The same shortcomings are evident in the PT, only a lot more so. So no, seeing that I dislike the dumbing down of ROTJ as well as the PT (only nowhere near as much), I don't think you can class it as a nasty case of rose tinted glasses.
HemDazon90 posted:i always thought it was his armor
d_arblay posted:My only concern is that perhaps, when they first came out, you watched both of these films through a child's eyes. I'm only speculating so forgive me if I'm wrong, but from what my instinct tells me, I would guess you are idealising them in comparison to the others purely for this factor alone. What you put down as "great dialogue" and "no crumby acting" is perhaps a romanticised view at best. Children of the 70's and 80's remember them as that because rarely do people question their tastes from days gone by without a very powerful thing called sentimentality. But in reality there is a lot of hokey dialogue and acting in the original trilogy (Harrison Ford: "you can type this shit but you can't say it").
d_arblay posted:There would be no strategic intelligence in dumbing it down considering the unprecidented success of ESB as a sequel.
d_arblay posted:I've also never been tempted to jump on this hysteric pseudo-intellectual, somewhat teenage-angst induced bandwagon that many people have against the Ewoks (I'm not saying thats what you neccessarily did but its what a lot of people have done - the spread of which has changed many attitudes to what was a fairly well regarded film, especially before the days of the internet). i've never viewed them as cute and cuddly teddy bears - i viewed them as damn-near ruthless warriors who were willing to burn our heroes and feast on them down to their bones until only their religion interfered! their fighting methods were well crafted and believable and the fact all of this was juxtaposed with their "cute and cuddly" appearance made it all the more intriguing as far as im concerned. its not as if they were the teletubbies! people seem to think that if you admit to liking ROTJ then you're showing a characteristic vulnerability. when people criticise something for being cute i do find it a little daft. they dont mind it in Wall-E or Finding Nemo but in a star wars movie its considered a sin and im baffled to be honest. I don't view the ewoks with much difference to how I view the Jawas in ANH. Often people comment on how cute and childlike their appearance is as well. In total there is about 1hr 30 mins worth of movie in ROTJ without the ewoks and they're cited too often as the reason people don't like the movie in my opinion.
Dark--Helmet posted:The amount of best of lists and awards that the movies have recieved blows this out of the water.People honor the movies all the time who where not kids when they saw the movies. The movies have always been known for great dialogue and no crumy acting,that's why the movies and characters are quoted favorites and have lasted this long.
Dark--Helmet posted: Empire wasn't as well recieved as Star Wars
Dark--Helmet posted:Jedi and Ewoks have always been the but end of SW jokes.The pre SE reviews for Jedi where not so hot.The ewoks being cute isn't really the problem.The Ewoks and most of ROTJ for that matter are so poorly done people focus on them being cute that it makes them annoying.Jawas,Chewy even the droids are cute and do cute things but things like the ewoks and JarJar where done poorly so they end up annoying people.Preset up traps,the way the actors moved in the costumes ect ect,nobody buys Palps futuristic best troops(especially after the PT) losing to sticks and stones.Wookies would have been a better chose.The differeance between SW and Wall-E and Finding Nemo is those moves are about the cute,SW is about Wars.The only universally liked things about ROTJ that I've seen is the interactions between Luke,Vader and Palp and the action in the space battle,everything else in the movie is up in the air weither it's good or not.
Dark--Helmet posted:The only universally liked things about ROTJ that I've seen is the interactions between Luke,Vader and Palp and the action in the space battle,everything else in the movie is up in the air weither it's good or not.
d_arblay posted:And to a point, you're right. Empire isn't as good as ANH and it didn't receive the same high praise, neither from fans who initially saw it or critics who were expecting much the same carefree tone as the first movie. It wasn't initially regarded to be the classic it is now, it has become that, through an element of sentimentality. The evidence is there. When I argue there is a case for this I believe it is justified.