Author Topic: There is no Canon?
Jedi Ben  9355 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:00pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
JJS' post:

What is the difference between “badly tampered with footage” and “pour special effects work”? In this instance, there is none. It’s not tampering with history; the OT still exists in its original form, and can be easily found. But the story has been altered slightly by the SE. That doesn’t tamper with history, that merely changes the story.

* Are you sure about the OT being available because it doesn't seem so. The OT videos are the SEs, the DVDs will likely be the SEs. Which pretty much prevents us from seeing the original cuts, unless you own an older, pre-1997, video version as I do.

* If anything it is this that many fans are irked at Lucas, not the SEs per se but Lucas' attempt to make the audience only watch the SE versions.

* Did the 9-disc Alien quadrilogy DVD set come out in the US? Because something on that line would be the best thing LFL could do for the OT on DVD. A 6 disc DVD set of both versions plus features, it'd sell like a bomb! But I'm sceptical this will ever happen.

* Anyway, I'm wondering how the original OT is still around unless you're referring to things like Ebay?

JB

 

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wild_karrde  27755 posts
Registered: Oct '99
21785_Talon Karrde
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:05pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
Canon go boom? ?:|

 

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sidious618  11601 posts
Registered: Apr '03
8059_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:22pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
I like the "There is no canon" idea.

 

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MasterControlProgram  455 posts
Registered: Dec '03
40090_Han Solo<br>WANTED
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:23pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 2:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterControlProgram
Or to use another example, did anyone in AOTC say "There goes Boba Fett, who was NEVER Jaster Mereel." No.

Boba Fett's EU origins were unaffected in their entirety by the two prequel movies thus far.


Not according to starwars.com:

Many legends propagate as to the origins of Boba Fett perhaps by design, since the uncertainty derived from a corrupted backstory of half-truths only adds to his mysterious and deadly aura. One tale tells of Fett being a failed stormtrooper who killed his commanding officer. Another has him being the commanding officer of a fabled group of warriors from Mandalore decimated by the Jedi Knights. A third account tells of a Journeyman Protector from Concord Dawn named Jaster Mereel who adopted the mask and guise when he was convicted of treason.

 

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Esplin9466  2179 posts
Registered: Oct '02
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:44pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 2:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Esplin9466
You'll note that nowhere does it say these legends aren't true. wink

 

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Darth_Arthas  71 posts
Registered: Aug '02
6221_Dengar
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:44pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
"One tale tells of Fett being a failed stormtrooper who killed his commanding officer."..."A third account tells of a Journeyman Protector from Concord Dawn named Jaster Mereel who adopted the mask and guise when he was convicted of treason."

Not to nitpick but both his time using the name Jaster Mareel, and his time as a Storm Trooper were mentioned as part of the same story in "Tales of the Bounty Hunters Anthology"; "Last Man Standing".

Gamer once said that Boba Fett once used Jaster Mareel as an alias.

 

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Blithe  2778 posts
Registered: Jun '03
19249_20-Sided Die
Date Posted: 1/7/04 2:50pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
However, he is not the only one to show disgust for the movies for various reasons. Alec Guiness, hated the movies so much, that he claimed that he was the one that talked Lucas into killing his character, because he didn't want to go on saying the bloody awful, banal lines anymore.


I wonder what these "Bloody awful, banal lines" were?

As a matter of fact, I thought Obi-Wan had some of the best dialouge in the Trilogy. But, English is definatle NOT one of my high points so...Alas...

Maybe you could tell me what Mr. Guiness was reffering to, Val? Thanks a bunch.

-Jabba

 

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Genghis12  18840 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '99
8181_Hoojib
Date Posted: 1/7/04 3:03pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 3:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Genghis12
MCP...
"Not according to starwars.com"

Try again. Starwars.com is NOT a prequel movie.

 

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Jedi Ben  9355 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 1/7/04 3:17pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
It goes like this Blithe....

You're an actor who has been acting for at least 30-40 years. You've been in some of the best British comedies ever written, performed multiple roles even. You're known as one of the best in the business for your range and versatility and you know subpar writing when you see it. You decide to take a role in a film called Star Wars and return for the sequels, only to find the bloody films go and eclipse your life's work!

Now, you telling me you wouldn't be really cheesed off?

JB

 

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Lord_Darth_Bob  1759 posts
Registered: Jun '01
6615_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 1/7/04 3:37pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 3:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Darth_Bob
Let's see, Palpatine claims that the republic had only been around for just over 1000 years. The EU overides it and made the republic last 25,000 years, choosing to follow what Obi-Wan said in ANH, in order to protect the EU's history.


Wrong Val. This is precisely why applying real life principles is essential to keeeping the SW story consistent and quality.

You have two equal canon statements, Palpatine's and Obi-Wan's. The EU corroborates Obi-Wan's. The corroborated statement is obviously better supported, and avoids the illogic of arbitrarily discarding evidence. The other canon statement is taking in terms of the better supported and corroborated canon statement.

In no way does the EU ever retcon canon. The EU supports some interpretations of canon more than others, which lends them more credulence--they're better corroborated.

Simple historical interpretation technique, really. This, the canon heirarchy, and various statements, as well as a superiority technique lead me to treat the SW Saga as a historical record of varying degrees of corroboration, reliability, accuracy, and objectivity. Consider the movies a filmed documentary or record--such a source would be superior to a history book written on said subject. Applying historical interpretation to such a view of SW is really what we do in here with fixes and whatnot all the time.

And I also feel its supported by the Insider 68, Cerasi, and Rostini quotes.

 

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Blithe  2778 posts
Registered: Jun '03
19249_20-Sided Die
Date Posted: 1/7/04 4:00pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
Now, you telling me you wouldn't be really cheesed off?

Still, the OT is one of the greatest trilogies of all time, up there with LOTR and Matrix. Maybe the British Folk had different standards, but despite some of StarWars inherent flaws, the movies were widely considered a success. I mean, if Guiness was invlolved in something like the PT, well ya, I could relate, but the OT is far beyond the PT as far as Im concerened.

Thanks for the reply JB.

-Jabba

 

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Darth_Kevin  5679 posts
Registered: Aug '01
6538_Imperial Seal
Date Posted: 1/7/04 5:56pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
Alec Guiness was also in "Murder by Death", so Star Wars is at least not his worst choice.

As for EU overriding the OT, how about Boba Fett and the Sarlacc. It wasn't supposed to be improbable to escape, but impossible, IIRC.

The rule of two, Jedi marriage - the EU at the very least bent and re-interpreted these ideas to something other than GL intended in order to make it fit with the rest of the EU.

 

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Vympel  329 posts
Registered: Oct '02
19527_Clone Model A
Date Posted: 1/7/04 6:08pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 6:16pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Vympel
How do you apply historical revisionism to something that doesn’t exist? Star Wars never happened. It’s a story, not a history.


No, it's history- see Lord Darth Bob's post. That is how I look upon it, and that's why I strongly disagree with the nonsensical "make it up as you go along, who cares, no rhyme or reason" nonsesnse peddled by the lazy people quoted above. Thank god these people aren't in charge of making canon pronouncements on a higher level, or we'd all be in deep trouble.

What is the difference between “badly tampered with footage” and “pour special effects work”? In this instance, there is none. It’s not tampering with history; the OT still exists in its original form, and can be easily found. But the story has been altered slightly by the SE. That doesn’t tamper with history, that merely changes the story.


Pure semantics- tampering/changing, it's all the same thing. Your claims aside, there is a difference between 'poor' special effects work and changing a known, uncontroversial, not to mention reasonable event (Han blasting a bounty hunter with a pistol in his face talking about how he's been looking forward to killing him) to a ridiculous exercise in revisionism by slicing up the scene's dialog and moving Han's head- not to mention having Greedo miss. It's obvious BS.

 

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JediJSolo  4005 posts
Registered: Jun '01
14765_Yoda Art
Date Posted: 1/7/04 6:51pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
Okay. I just disagree, then. The SE is treated as trumping the original by GL and LFL, and since they are the ones who have every right to set these things, that’s what I go with. I don’t always like the canon set by LFL (Force Lighting), but I accept it, because they own it.

 

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Darth_Kevin  5679 posts
Registered: Aug '01
6538_Imperial Seal
Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:08pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
If a painting from an artist is in a museum, can they show up one day and change it later because they were the original artist?

 

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