Jedi Council Forums - Osvald Teshik......framed?

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Author	Topic: Osvald Teshik......framed?
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 4:31pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 4:36pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	I get the justification here Grand Admiral Jello. There was certainly an issue of vengeance here in the trial and execution of of Grand Admiral Teshik. He was the first Imperial officer that ever fell into the hands of the Rebellion/New Republic alive. He was made an example of. I'm not disputing any of that. My argument is that its not somehow invalidating every principle the Republic stands for if there's a few skeletons in the Republic's closet versus the mass graveyard of the Empire. I'm also stating that the Republic following the "rules of war" seems to be fairly ridiculous in this respect. I'm a pragmatist by nature rather than an idealist (suprising I know despite my pacifism and the fact that I'm utterly pro-Jedi/Pro-Rebellion). I hold war to the standard of declared objectives rather than a set of fairly recent and largely unobserved by COUNTLESS nations EVEN today rules. The declared objective of the Alliance to Restore the Republic is to destroy the Empire, try/eliminate it's leadership, and restore the Galactic Republic in form. Nowhere does it say that there's a nation to nation recognition between the Rebellion and Empire. The Empire certainly doesn't recognize it and if the Rebellion declares that the same rules apply in reverse to the Empire... I.e. You don't recognize us as a nation, we don't recognize you. Admiral Donitz is someone that my grandfather as a lawyer actually went over the case for (I think it was for review for law rather than any involvement or my grandfather would have been a lot more proud) and he described the case to me as essentially attempting to head off the legalization of battlefield executions rather than actually Donitz being 'innocent.' My pragmatism in war time comes from the implication that shavit happens. I don't particularly glorify Donitz as some saint because the man still butchered civilian craft during war time. It's just the United States did the same. Today, the same actions would get him tried. It's just they didn't then. It's only sensible. The Rebellion also has been quite generous by comparison to what it could be. Frankly; I would have held thousands of trials, thrown away the key for every Imperial whom didn't cooperate, and make a deliberate effort to destroy every trace of the Empire from monuments to public works. Make it like a bad dream.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:22pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Saying that it could have been worse doesn't make it defensible. Most of the Empire's "skeletons" come from people exceeding their orders. Certainly, we don't see Lord Vader needlessly killing non-combatants. Yet the supposed "few" (all our records come from Rebel sources, after all) that the Rebellion commissioned happen to be under the auspices of the highest leadership, from Leader Mothma to Admiral Ackbar. Certainly, it doesn't 'invalidate' their principles--it merely puts the lie to them. Doenitz certainly isn't a saint and he certainly did evil, but the point is that he wasn't charged for being in the Nazi 'inner circles.' He was charged for actions he actually did himself. That's the key point. If he was charged simply for being a high-ranking Nazi, he'd have been killed. Grand Admiral Teshik, as you admitted, was killed as an example. The Rebellion claims it does not do such things. It does. Incidentally, not being recognized isn't an excuse for the Rebellion's conduct. The American revolutionaries certainly didn't tell King George III that they didn't recognize Great Britain's existence anymore. That's not how it works. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:23pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: Charlemagne19 posted: FTeik posted: He was the highest ranking Imperial the rebels got their dirty hands on. And wouldn't you laugh, too, if a bunch of terrorists claiming to fight for freedom and justice sentences you to death even if you didn't commit a crime? I think if I'm a smart man, I'd probably recognize that my government does the same for them with far more frequency. Can you really fault the rebellion for turnabout if you're an Imperial? Why would you expect mercy from individuals you've never shown any. Yeah, 'cause those "rules of war" things mean nothing. Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to execute a decorated enemy combatant for crimes he didn't commit in a mock trial. Especially if you add the charges 'treason against the New Republic' and 'destruction of Alliance property.' Yup. And we thought the Empire was bad. Just a hint for anyone planning a counterrevolutionary movement: when you officially declare yourself a legitimate government rather than a Rebellion, i.e. the New Republic, it's very bad form to start by immediately conducting in war crimes. What's marginally defensible in a criminal terrorist organization is not acceptable conduct for a legitimate government. Neither is engaging on a belligerent campaign against another rival government--e.g. the invasion of the Core worlds--without a legitimate casus belli. The "declaration of Rebellion" defended their actions against the Empire previously, but this is akin to the United States invading London after the Constitutional Convention. Osvald Teshik was not framed, he was murdered. The New Republic is a group of war criminals, murderers, war hawks, and corrupt politicians. They are not to be trusted. The Empire is victorious on all fronts. Alright Jello, I'll bite. Just to spare poor Ackbar from being bad mouthed by you. (Though I knwo of your early, secret obsession with Ackbar back in the day...) I will try to break down my opinions point by point, based on your comments in the above post. 1. In reference to the war crimes trial and execution of Teshik, I agree that it is a bit suprising that the Rebellion executed him- unless he committed crimes that we are not aware of. My point is that all we have to go by is a few lines in a Insider article. Granted this could go either way, but this is my reasoning for why he may not be totally innocent. 2. In regards to your second paragraph, you have to look at things from the viewpoint of the Rebels. In their minds they were not revolutionaries, but the last defenders of the Old Republic. The name itself- Alliance to Restore the Republic- implies this. Fromt eh Rebel viewpoint, they were the remnant of the former legitimate government. I do totally disagree with you in regards to the invasion of the Core. Again, our viewpoints differ. An invasion to your eyes is a liberation to mine. There was a state of war against the Empire. Fact. Even though Palpatine was gone they still had a job to do before their overall goal was complete. The analogy I like to use is if the US was turned into an Empire and those of us loyal to the countries democractic-republican (note small d and r) values formed a rebellion, would we rest if we defeated the leader of this new Empire but Washington, D.C. and most of the major population centers were controlled by enemy forces? Hell no. I would marshal my forces to reclaim my capital. 3. All I have to say to "war criminals, murderers, war hawks, and corrupt politicians" is this. Seriously, again this is totally a point of view difference between the two of us. Your corrupt politicians are my founders of the Rebellion, your war hawks my Ackbar and Drayson. 4. THE EMPIRE IS VICTORIOUS ON ALL FRONTS- just don't look out your window if you live in the Galactic Core. Just keep your TV tuned to Imperial channdels. (c. 2-4 ABY) --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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AdmiralWesJanson Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:29pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	AdmiralNick22 posted: 4. THE EMPIRE IS VICTORIOUS ON ALL FRONTS- just don't look out your window if you live in the Galactic Core. Just keep your TV tuned to Imperial channdels. (c. 2-4 ABY) --Adm. Nick Who doesn't love Brentaal Bob and Chandrilla Cal? -----signature----- Duke of Corellia Join the Corellian Browncoats in their fight against the evil Alliance! Fix the K-Wing! No more XJs! Make the next X-Wing a T-65K!
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:36pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Alright Jello, I'll bite. Just to spare poor Ackbar from being bad mouthed by you. (Though I knwo of your early, secret obsession with Ackbar back in the day...) Lies! Rebel lies! 1. In reference to the war crimes trial and execution of Teshik, I agree that it is a bit suprising that the Rebellion executed him- unless he committed crimes that we are not aware of. My point is that all we have to go by is a few lines in a Insider article. Granted this could go either way, but this is my reasoning for why he may not be totally innocent. Unfortunately, the history books are written by the Rebellion. The NEC came out after that article and neglected to mention even a single atrocity of his--when we read books mentioning Nuremberg, the war crimes alluded to are never left out. The Rebels got out of their way to mention these things. Yet--there's not a single bit of evidence anywhere they he ever behaved in an improper fashion. Curious, isn't it? He was killed as a symbol. As a message to to other Imperials that their day was numbered. Note: Post is split thanks to markups. Ugh. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:37pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	2. In regards to your second paragraph, you have to look at things from the viewpoint of the Rebels. In their minds they were not revolutionaries, but the last defenders of the Old Republic. The name itself- Alliance to Restore the Republic- implies this. Fromt eh Rebel viewpoint, they were the remnant of the former legitimate government. They are not revolutionaries. They are counterrevolutionaries. I do totally disagree with you in regards to the invasion of the Core. Again, our viewpoints differ. An invasion to your eyes is a liberation to mine. There was a state of war against the Empire. Fact. Even though Palpatine was gone they still had a job to do before their overall goal was complete. The analogy I like to use is if the US was turned into an Empire and those of us loyal to the countries democractic-republican (note small d and r) values formed a rebellion, would we rest if we defeated the leader of this new Empire but Washington, D.C. and most of the major population centers were controlled by enemy forces? There was no such state of war. A rebellion cannot declare war, it is not a legitimate entity. It is in rebellion--since they drafted a Declaration of Rebellion, this is not disputed by Leader Mothma. She did not see herself as an agent of the Old Republic, but as a Rebel. Following her declaration of the New Republic, Leader Mothma proceeded to wage an unprovoked war of conquest in the Core systems. Rogue Squadron tells us the moffs in the Core were busy fighting each other and the EC tells us Isard and the Ruling Circle were reinforcing the Core. They were not out hunting down the New Republic. The invasion of the Core worlds was a blatant invasion by one sovereign state against another. Again, it is akin to the USA invading London after the Constitutional Convention. They are no longer in rebellion, they cannot just do that. What of the unlawful invasion of the Ciutric Hegemony, too? Note: post is split due to markups. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:39pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Seriously, again this is totally a point of view difference between the two of us. Your corrupt politicians are my founders of the Rebellion, your war hawks my Ackbar and Drayson. Did Leader Mothma not replace one imperialistic and bellicose government with another ('cept a personal change of leaders)? Did Fey'lya not replace one set of cronies with another? Did Ackbar not launch an assault against a capital using death sentenced criminals? 4. THE EMPIRE IS VICTORIOUS ON ALL FRONTS- just don't look out your window if you live in the Galactic Core. Just keep your TV tuned to Imperial channdels. (c. 2-4 ABY) Ahhh... Coruscant Hourly. Assuming this works, this should be the final split post. Ugh. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 5:51pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: They are not revolutionaries. They are counterrevolutionaries. A accurate description actually. I also note that Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and Bel Iblis also have forfeited any right to right to refer to themselves as Old Republic loyalists by the fact that they were all three Imperial Senators. So don't think I'm completely ignoring facts here. All three recognized the Imperial government and took high ranking posistion in the government before starting their Rebellion. GrandAdmiralJello posted: There was no such state of war. A rebellion cannot declare war, it is not a legitimate entity. It is in rebellion--since they drafted a Declaration of Rebellion, this is not disputed by Leader Mothma. She did not see herself as an agent of the Old Republic, but as a Rebel. That's something of a legal technicality though. The Rebellion had numerous governments that had been elected, monarchial, or otherwise recognized by the Empire as enemy states behind it. The difference between the Seperatists and Rebellion though is legally (though not in actuality) the Seperatists would have recognized the Republic if they had been allowed to have right of self-determination. Someone mentioned above the American Revolution didn't not recognize Britain. The difference is that the battle between the American Revolution and Britain was that it was a Seperatist movement and not an idealogical war. GrandAdmiralJello posted: Following her declaration of the New Republic, Leader Mothma proceeded to wage an unprovoked war of conquest in the Core systems. Rogue Squadron tells us the moffs in the Core were busy fighting each other and the EC tells us Isard and the Ruling Circle were reinforcing the Core. They were not out hunting down the New Republic. The invasion of the Core worlds was a blatant invasion by one sovereign state against another. Again, it is akin to the USA invading London after the Constitutional Convention. They are no longer in rebellion, they cannot just do that. Grand Admiral Jello, what you're describing is the same logic that lead to the Gulf War fiasco where our goal was the liberation of Kuwait rather than the dismantling of Saddam Hussein's government. Almost every historian in the world will tell you what an utter and complete blunder that proved to be. Even if we're following your convuluted logic, we could point to any number of incidents.... 1. Lumiya's attempt to destroy the Rebellion with Isard's support. 2. The treachery at Bakura. 3. The continued lack of recognition for the New Republic (take note that the Empire didn't recognize the Rebellion) And so on as acts of war. What you're describing is something that ONLY OCCURS after a formal truce has been signed which had decidedly not happened. Yssane Isard and previous Imperial leaders never ended the state of war that existed between the Rebellion and Empire so its decidedly within the rules of war to invade their capital. Now, yes, you actually have a point that the Rebellion had no authority to OCCUPY the worlds after dismantling the government. That's an entirely different kettle of fish though and that draws into question whether the Rebellion installed their own leadership independent of the elected rule of the masses or allowed the governments to elect their own leadership with the expectation they'd be friendly. It's real-world diplomacy that you can remove a government and then they elect again the old government only to have the new-old government smacked down again. There's evidence that both happened. Grand Admiral Jello posted: What of the unlawful invasion of the Ciutric Hegemony, too? Hardly unlawful, the Cituric Hegimony was housing known war criminal Yssane Isard and combatants from the Rebellion-Empire war. As justifications for an invasion, that has been historically accepted as quite valid reasons.
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BootlegVader Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:01pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 6:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BootlegVader
	Charlemagne19 posted: 1. Lumiya's attempt to destroy the Rebellion with Isard's support. 2. The treachery at Bakura. 3. The continued lack of recognition for the New Republic (take note that the Empire didn't recognize the Rebellion) Charles first of all those first two actions both happened before the Rebels became the NEw Republic so they can not be concieved as acts of war against the New Republic. Also not recognising the New Republic hardly counts as a act of war. As Iran does not recognize Israel as a country but does that mean Israel has the right to declare war and send military forces to occupy Iran. Charlemagne19 posted: Hardly unlawful, the Cituric Hegimony was housing known war criminal Yssane Isard and combatants from the Rebellion-Empire war. As justifications for an invasion, that has been historically accepted as quite valid reasons Well Alderaan was well knowned to house rebel suppertors and leaders, so does that mean its destruction is justified. -----signature----- Archie Goodwin and Abel G. Pena best Star Wars EU Writers ever!!!!!! Pet a Hoojib for Good Luck.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:06pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 6:11pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	BootlegVader posted: Charlemagne19 posted: 1. Lumiya's attempt to destroy the Rebellion with Isard's support. 2. The treachery at Bakura. 3. The continued lack of recognition for the New Republic (take note that the Empire didn't recognize the Rebellion) Charles first of all those first two actions both happened before the Rebels became the NEw Republic so they can not be concieved as acts of war against the New Republic. Also not recognising the New Republic hardly counts as a act of war. As Iran does not recognize Israel as a country but does that mean Israel has the right to declare war and send military forces to occupy Iran. The New Republic declared itself almost immediately as a government rather than a revolution after the Battle of Endor. So decidedly Lumiya's actions fall under this sway even though there's room to argue with Bakura. (take note that I'm referring to the Alliance of Free Planets as essentially the same as the New Republic but both are still governments so my point here applies) And the case of Iran and Israel doesn't apply because Iran hasn't been lobbing bombs at Israel for 20+ years before hand. While the Empire certainly didn't have the Rebellion on its mind while it was fighting over the heir to the empire, they never made any efforts to state the fighting was done between them. In lieu of this, there's no reason for the Rebellion not to continue to prosecute a war that's already going on. Edit: But yes, to be formal it was exactly 1 month after the Battle of Endor that the Declaration of a New Republic was actually formally chartered. Which in fact does dilute the whole Bakura incident. Here's the actual Declaration. In retrospect, Admiral Teshik was actually killed by the REBELLION rather than the New Republic. Unless the Alliance of Free planets existed before the Declaration. Tough call.
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:24pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Charlemagne19 posted: And the case of Iran and Israel doesn't apply because Iran hasn't been lobbing bombs at Israel for 20+ years before hand. But they have been funding those who do . . . -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:26pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	C19 posted: Grand Admiral Jello, what you're describing is the same logic that lead to the Gulf War fiasco where our goal was the liberation of Kuwait rather than the dismantling of Saddam Hussein's government. Almost every historian in the world will tell you what an utter and complete blunder that proved to be. No, that's not the same thing. The Gulf War was a legitimate conflict between states. Dismantling Hussein's government could have been part of the same action. The situation I'm talking about is a rebellion against a legitimate government. Once the New Republic was formed, they were not in rebellion--they acted as a sovereign state. As such, there is no state of rebellion. Yet the New Republic continued to invade and annex the Core Worlds. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:28pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: No, that's not the same thing. The Gulf War was a legitimate conflict between states. Dismantling Hussein's government could have been part of the same action. The situation I'm talking about is a rebellion against a legitimate government. Once the New Republic was formed, they were not in rebellion--they acted as a sovereign state. As such, there is no state of rebellion. Yet the New Republic continued to invade and annex the Core Worlds. Well questions of legitimacy aside. The issue of whether this new state was at war with the Imperial government for crimes against humanity or attacks against sovereign New Republic territories (or invading as 'peacekeeping' if the Empire was holding worlds that wanted to join the New Republic) there's any number of justifications for continuing hostilities.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:34pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Havac posted: But they have been funding those who do . . . And if there wasn't 3 nations inbetween Israel and Iran plus the idea they could win, I imagine Israel would be all over it. ;-)
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Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:40pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: jSarek: Emotionless does not equate to sociopathic. They have emotions--in abundance! You are quite correct. I was trying to think of a particular psychological term and erred. Since I still can't think of the correct term, we'll stick with "detached from his emotions." That condition is still quite amenable to committing atrocities, though. GrandAdmiralJello posted: You are using an assumption as your justification. That is begging the question. The New Republic's own historical documents--which have never been unforthcoming in gleefully listing 'atrocities'--fail to mention a thing about Teshik's supposed atrocities. In fact, all we know is that he was compassionate and took his duties to defend the Core seriously. We are told nothing about the period between his disaster in Hapan space and the Battle of Endor. Surely, if his record is as terrible as you suggest, we'd have heard something? Anything? Nope, nothing. The thing is, you're using absence of evidence, too. We do know he ceased to be compassionate after his abysmal treatment as a 'borg after Hapes. Nowhere is it said or even implied that he didn't earn his execution. The fact that he has only been mentioned in about four sources, two of which taken from a viewpoint before the incident at Hapes, only shows that we don't have the whole picture, not that we have proof he'd done nothing. I tended to take the fact that the New Republic was able to successfully try Teshik, the fact that it would be consistent with his condition between Hapes and Endor, and the fact that there is no evidence that the New Republic ran kangaroo courts, to be a good reason to think that there was sufficient evidence to convict him. But you are correct that this relies on a fair amount of absence of evidence, so reserving judgment is warranted. Assuming Teshik was innocent, however, is not. GrandAdmiralJello posted: Lord Vader could have been tried, even after he was 'redeemed'. There is plenty of evidence for that (though it's my opinion Skywalker would have arranged for his father to be pardoned). There is none for Teshik. When's the last time you read a book on Nuremberg that did not mention anything at all about the executed prisoner's war crimes? Yeah, Skywalker probably would've wrangled a pardon somehow; that's the advantage of living in a world like the movies where you can use fairytale logic to your advantage. ;-) I've never read a book on Nuremberg. I've read about Nuremberg in the context of other things, and the amount of discussion of what transpired was wholly related to how long the overview of Nuremberg was. In the context of Teshik's story in Insider #66 (a four-paragraph summary of the man's entire life) and The New Essential Chronology (two brief accounts, one consisting of two sentences describing his capture, and one of one sentence mentioning his execution), I'm surprised we have an exact quote of the charges made against him, let alone an enumeration of the specific crimes subsumed under that charge. Though, I must ask, in how many of those Nuremberg books or accounts did you not read what the criminals offered as defense for their actions? I've heard "I was only following orders" more often than I've heard the actual charges they were using that as a defense against. Does the absence of a record of Teshik's defense imply he didn't have one? -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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