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Author	Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Jovieve Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:29pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I don't get where people are saying the Jedi are hypocrits. How? Also: Sure the Jedi are hypocrytical. I find it intersting that they are taught not to love, but yet Obi-Wan's last words to Anakin are "You were my brother Anakin, I loved you." sigh Jedi are taught not to have ATTACHMENTS. They are - in Anakin's words - encouraged to love. They can love all they want to, but they don't have attachments. Proof: "You were my brother Anakin, I loved you." Obi-Wan walks away. -----signature----- "Are there Sith on this planet, Master Kenobi? Are they coming for us now? Should we - I don't know - run?" "Run?" he echoed. "Run where, do you suggest?" "I don't know! Away?"
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Lapti_Nek Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:32pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I would call forbidding attachment and possessions *dealing" in absolutes. There is no room in the Jedi Order's narrow dogma for such things. A monastic cult that takes children with high midichlorian counts and forbids their parents to ever see them again is most definitely DEALING in absolutes. There are no exceptions. You don't have attachments if you're a Jedi. There's no grey area, no "wiggle room", and any Jedi who is caught in such a relationship is EXPELLED and deemed "fallen". And they were wrong. Luke's a perfectly decent jedi without the Jedi Order dictating rules to him. In fact, I daresay he's a better Jedi than Obi-Wan was BECAUSE of his attachments and love for friends and family.
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Emkay69 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:46pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	WARNING - LONG POST I think alot of people are really missing the point here. In Star Wars, the Sith -- especially Darth Sidious -- use deceit and lies to get what they want. "Absolutes" in this context refers to a frequently used political tool -- a rhetorical device called a "false dilemma." The point of a false dilemma is to coerce or pressure its audience into accepting an idea or course of action based on false logic. You are saying either it is this way or that way -- but not allowing for any other logical point of view that is reasonable. In this case - Anakin says "either you are with me or you are my enemy." Obi-Wan was clearly not with him, but that did not ABSOLUTELY make him his enemy, either. The reason Anakin is saying this is to intimidate Obi-Wan and get him to agree - and submit to his will. It's a logic problem - the intent is intimidation and verbal oppression and it uses false logic. And in Star Wars, it uses the sort of circular reasoning nad projection that leads to Anakin always believing his actions are correct and justified and that HE'S the good guy. It's as if he is saying - "I don't want to do this, but you leave me no choice." I like that, because it it shows in a subtle way that Anakin is conflicted despite the decisiveness of his physical action - he'd secretly like Obi-Wan to say "Anakin - I am with you -- my master." Saying "Chancellor Palpatine is evil" is NOT an absolute in this context. It is a fact - or if that has been exaggerated it is hyperbole (we call that SPIN sometimes!). At worst it is just an opinion. But does not deal in absolutes insofar as you are not being offered choices - it is only a statement. When Anakin says "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil" he is also merely making a statement. If he had said "unless the Jedi do exactly what I want, then they are evil" that would be an absolute. It's a pretty well-established tactic of politicians - particularly dictators - to use rhetorical tools like this to control people and in the context of Star Wars it is fitting that this be a trait of the Sith. After all, Palpatine is a politician who becomes a dictator and oppresses a whole damn galaxy! As to whether there is a parallel between the language used in the movie and by our current president - I think we gotta give Lucas the benefit of the doubt. Should we also tie the change in Palpatine's appearance to that Eurasian dude who got poisoned before he was elected president? Besides, this stuff in the movie should look like the politics we know - it's part of what makes this fantasy feel real to us. Bush's statement - something like "either you are with us or you are with the terrorists," was not well put. Some Americans loved it because it was tough talk. But to many other well-established soverign governments, as well as many Americans, it sounds an awful lot like "its my way or the highway" - which is pretty much what it means. Not a great moment for GW, IMHO. And if you're bothered enough by the similarity it bears to what Anakin says in his rather blatant attempt to intimidate and/or provoke his opponent, perhaps you ought consider that GW is not an infallible man. I'd leave it to the individual to decide his value and do not judge him here - but I believe that those words were ill-advised and we'd do well to admit they were a mistake to begin with and move on rather than politicizing a pretty good movie because it offends our politics. Language defines how people view things. In 1984, the government got rid of the word "no" when it proved problematic. After all, you can't dissent or refuse without the word "no!" Some more examples of political semantic sleights of hand that lead to logical false dilemmas: 1 - If you are not pro-life, does that make you pro-death? 2 - If you are pro-family, can you be against any marriage? 3 - If a cat can get a manicure, can a man get a caticure? The list is endless. Peace- MK
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MikeSolo Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:48pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I see nothing wrong with this line. The Jedi Order at this point in the SW timeline is very arrogant. Yoda even hints at it in ATOC when him Obi and Mace are talking about Anakin. -----signature----- A Defender Emerges: Princess Leia Organa "Guns don't kill people. The goverment does" Dale Gribble KOTH Some call it the OT, some call it the PT........ I call it the Star Wars Saga.
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Jovieve Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:56pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Laptki I would call forbidding attachment and possessions dealing" in absolutes.* I wouldn't. Obi-Wan loves Qui-Gon Jinn as a father and Anakin as a brother. He carries them in his heart and you know how long Obi-Wan carried his guilt for Anakin. There is no dogma there. They are human. A monastic cult that takes children with high midichlorian counts and forbids their parents to ever see them again is most definitely DEALING in absolutes. Wrong. The parents GIVE UP their children to the Jedi. The Jedi do not take them. They adopt those children. The parents have read the fine print about whether or not they can visit their kids and they give them up anyway. Hate to tell you, but infants don't miss their parents. The kids grow up in the Jedi Order. Their fellows ARE their family. Please. They live in a Republic, not a dictatorship. There are no exceptions. You don't have attachments if you're a Jedi. There's no grey area, no "wiggle room", and any Jedi who is caught in such a relationship is EXPELLED and deemed "fallen". Yes, because the Jedi can be very dangerous people thus they have a very hard life. That's why it's called a discipline. The Jedi are not a summer camp for kids. Those who cannot follow rules and have strong passions they don't feel like giving up do not make it very far in the Order and with good reason. See Anakin. And they were wrong. Luke's a perfectly decent jedi without the Jedi Order dictating rules to him. Yes, but he was a decent person before. And so were all the Jedi as well - except for Anakin. In fact, I daresay he's a better Jedi than Obi-Wan was BECAUSE of his attachments and love for friends and family. You could but you'd be wrong though. -----signature----- "Are there Sith on this planet, Master Kenobi? Are they coming for us now? Should we - I don't know - run?" "Run?" he echoed. "Run where, do you suggest?" "I don't know! Away?"
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Darth_Seriously Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 9:03pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Jovieve, thanks for the compliments. People are continuing to mix up the terms, and I'll bet they'll continue to do so. But, I'll repeat, there is a big difference between PRINCIPLES and ABSOLUTES. A principled person need not be an absolutist. Principles are not the same thing as absolutes. Principles are norms that guide people's actions, while absolutes are demands forcing people to choose x instead of y or face ostracization. The jedi rule regarding no romantic attachments is not an absolute as Obi Wan is using the term. That's just a rule defining what it means to be a jedi. It's just like a rule saying priests must take a vow of celibacy in order to be a priest, or that a doctor must be licensed in order to practice medicine, or that in order to be in the boy scouts, one needs to be a boy, or one needs to be 21 to drink beer. What are examples of absolutism? It's when the Nazis imprisoned dissidents of Nazism for being traitors. It's when Joseph McCarthy tried to censor and blacklist communists.
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serendipityaey Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 5/22/05 9:14pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Great post MK! Good to see a well thought out, intelligent response and explanation. The Jedi were not perfect, obviously they made mistakes, but all that about them stealing babies and not being allowed to love anyone sounds like such propaganda! Have you watched the movies? Or are you actually a cynical farmer on Tatooine hearing second hand stories about the mysterious and suspicious Jedi Order? I think the Order needed change almost as much as the Senate, but they weren't evil, and they were doing their best in the worst of times against insurmountable odds. -----signature----- "I just stuck myself. Ask me how I did that..." -my brother
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Emkay69 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 9:15pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	An absolutist follows a maxim and refuses to tolerate anyone who does not abide by his maxim. An absolutist is beyond just being principled -- he cares not just about being internally consistent, but he is more obsessed with categorizing other people into binary, either/or categories. This is extremely well put!!! Again, I feel this also shows the "twisting" of Anakin's logic - either you fit into my master plan or you are bad and I have to kill you and you've brought this on yourself!!! -MK
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solame Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 10:18pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Certainly other beings in the galaxy can also deal in absolutes. But OB1 says that "ONLY a Sith deals in absolutes." He is saying that no other entity can deal in absolutes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Sith is a pretty special kind of badass, right? But now apparently, according to OB1, if one deals in absolutes then one is automatically promoted to Sithdom. So is the argument that OB1 is incorrect or that Mr. Lucas didn't really think this one through very carefully?
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bright sith Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 5/22/05 10:24pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
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Master_Boucks Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 10:26pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Great post EmKay. About time somebody with some logic put this ridiculous debate to rest. If people are so obsessed with relating Bush to Palpatine then they really should look at why he was ELECTED FOR A SECOND TERM as president of arguably the strongest nation in the world. That's more disturbing than a Vader and Grievous threesome. Obi-Wans statement made perfect sense because Anakin was being irrantional and dealing in absolutes in order to justify to himself the decisions that he was making. There is conflict there throughout and it is through these absolute statments that he jusitifies everything. -----signature----- Boy you trained......gone he is.........consumed by Darth Vader Yoda - Episode Three - Revenge of the Sith
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solojones Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/22/05 10:32pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	THANK you Darth_Seriously for neatly defining the difference between absolutists and principled people. That really puts this line at rest more in my mind. Now, I still think it was a bit of repeated Jedi philosophy and it wasn't really helpful for Obi-Wan to say something like that... but we see when Obi-Wan reasons heart to heart that it doesn't matter anyway. So yeah. Anyway, thanks for that. Good discussion here... except for the crap about it being modern politics . Please. Star Wars has always been, politically, about the danger of single party states. Full stop. They are quite similar if you know much about history. Lucas has drawn upon Stalin and Hitler particularly, but it's pretty much a formula. The politics, though, are more a means to an overall thematic end. I am so sick of hearing people politicize this. You're missing the point! A large part of RotS is about how politicking is what gets people in trouble. Arg. I agree with Obi-Wan. I'm not brave enough for politics and I hate politicians. -sj loves kevin spacey -----signature----- 6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation My short films: http://www.youtube.com/solojones1138
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Darth_Sadistikal Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 10:59pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Nice to see this finally made it into it's own thread. I expressed how this line made me scratch my head in the "What you didn't like about ROTS" thread. My take will echo many of the others. No can truly read Lucas' mind on his intention of putting in this line, so I will take the line on face value...to deal in absolutes makes you a Sith which is more than problematic when viewing Star Wars as a morality tale. This implies that in contrast to thinking in moral absolutes, to think "what is right for you right for you, and what is right for me is right for me." (in other words, moral chaos), makes you a "good" guy.
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jaguaro Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 11:06pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	To all the people who are saying that this is an example of Lucas trying to be politically correct- You forget, or perhaps are unaware, that the Jedi are LARGELY to blame for what happens to them. They deal with absolutes all the time, and I think that Obi Wan's statement points out the hypocracy of the Jedi. -----signature----- Member since June '00! Honest! Just forgot my password.
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Professor Moriarty Registered: Sep '99	Date Posted: 5/22/05 11:16pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I don't trust anything written by a billionaire who has been divorced for 22 years and isn't completely surrounded by beautiful young vixons... -----signature----- Sir "Rub it hard enough and all your wishes will come true" - of the Knights of the Sarcasm Table
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