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Topic:
Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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JohnWilliamson
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/21/05 4:25pm
Subject:
Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
- Date Edited:
11/19/05 3:21pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
General Kenobi
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IN ESB, VADER tells PALPATINE, that "IF HE COULD BE TURNED HE WOULD BE A GREAT ALLIE"..........VADER was signing his own death certificate.
Even when he told LUKE, that together they could strike down PALPATINE and rule the galaxy as father and son, he knew that there was only to be 2.
And then again why did VADER protect PALPATINE in the end of RETURN OF JEDI, why not let LUKE strike him down ?
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nyjet10
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
2/21/05 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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"IN ESB, VADER tells PALPATINE, that "IF HE COULD BE TURNED HE WOULD BE A GREAT ALLIE"..........VADER was signing his own death certificate."
Yea that is a mistake isn't it. Interesting...
"Even when he told LUKE, that together they could strike down PALPATINE and rule the galaxy as father and son, he knew that there was only to be 2."
True
"And then again why did VADER protect PALPATINE in the end of RETURN OF JEDI, why not let LUKE strike him down ? "
Just remember that Jedi and Sith can sense differences and changes in each other. Vader knew this. He knew if he even though about not protecting Sidious, that Sidious would have known and cut him down before he had the chance. He had to wait until Sidious was distracted to kill him.
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Rennick
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
2/21/05 5:42pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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I think more of this comes from Anakin's fall to the dark side. But I'll give arguments in the order presented.
Mara-Jade is a well known EU character who is classified as cannon and was the Emperor's Hand. For those who don't know, she was basically his personal assasin. Mara is a force sensitive and Palpatine trained her to have rudimentary skill with it so they could comunicate and to help her in her missions. That said she was certainly no Jedi at this point. I'm bringing this up because maybe when Vader suggested turning Luke, he originally meant as something akin to this. Now I know this can be argued that the Emperor told Luke to "take his father's place" right in front of Vader, but this brings me to my next point.
Vader was evil, he was Dark side no matter how you look at it. Now I love Anakin and think that he was a great/albeit flawed Jedi before he fell. That said he still fell. When he revealed himself to Luke on Bespin he didn't say, "Join me son, and we will save the galaxy and institute a democratic government like your mother would have wanted." or even, "Join me, and we shall manipulate the galaxy in a way to help the people in the long run"
His words were, with a clenched fist, "Join me, and we shall rule the Galaxy as Father and Son!" This is not the most altruistic statement. Vader was a servant and slave of the Dark side. So I don't think he could strike down the emperor or not stop Luke from killing him. Vader only turns back as the very end and up to this point he needed the combined might of himself and his son to kill the Emperor and Luke hadn't joined him and wasn't on his side.
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clone3131
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
2/21/05 6:03pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
- Date Edited:
2/21/05 6:04pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
clone3131
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No mistake: Couple of things
1) Vader wants to turn Luke and rule the universe as Father and Son
2) Vader knows luke can destroy the Emperor. "You can destroy the Emperor. He has forseen it."
3) Vader knows the rule of two and wants Luke to join him and kill the Emperor.
4) "If he could be turned, he would be a powerfull ally" --What a better way to get Luke before the Emperor to have him try and kill him.
5) Why did Vader save Palpatine? "You do not understand the POWER of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my master.
Vader couldnt kill Palpatine. But Luke could. Because he wasnt under Palpatine's control.
CLone
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NorCalBirdz
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
2/21/05 7:31pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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I never noticed that discrepancy before, but the simple answer is the rule of two hadn't been invented at that point.
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Rcatz21
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
2/21/05 8:53pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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well in the OT neither palpatine nor vader refer to themselves as sith so I dont think they really care about the rule of 2. The rule of 2 was created to hide from the Jedi and since Luke is the only Jedi left there was noone to hide from.
*i realize it was also created because the sith kept killing each other off and what not becuase they were all power hungry but also to hide their presence.
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BONE_KENOBI
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 11:28am
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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Because both Vader and the Emporer are trying to use Luke to kill off the other. They are scheming against eachother.
I think Dooku asking Obi-Wan to join him in AOTC was similar. I think it was actually a bona fide offer. Use Obi-Wan to kill off Sidious...
A thought - and it isn't even an original one!
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Freddy-Krueger
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 12:28pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
- Date Edited:
2/22/05 12:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Freddy-Krueger
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Vader wants to turn Luke, then the two would kill the Emporer and rule the galaxy together. Simple really.
Mara-Jade is a well known EU character who is classified as cannon
Guys, get over it. Nothing in the EU is considered canon.
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Sith Magician
Registered:
Sep '99
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 12:34pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
- Date Edited:
2/22/05 12:35pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Sith Magician
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Freddy, I agree with you, but that'll just bring out the EUDF troops to derail the thread.
In any event, there's no error, Wait for may 19, many things will be made clear...
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VadersVacuumSeal
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 5:03pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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Vader = Anakin Skywalker
Luke Skywalker = the male offspring of Anakin Skywalker turned Darth Vader
Vader trains luke, Vader+Luke confront and defeat Sidious, then Vader and Luke rule the universe.
Ok? This is all very well known, very common knowledge. If you have anty 05er doubts left, the turn on the audio commentary track in Empire Strikes Back.
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rogue_wookiee
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 5:24pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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[i]Mara-Jade is a well known EU character who is classified as cannon[i]
Mara Jade isn't a Sith. She doesn't count. No need to call the EUDF.
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Aiel_Neeuq
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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"Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?"
Vader was keeping within that rediculous rule by recruiting Luke. Together, they would have ousted the Emperor or at least tried. I don't think that it would have worked however, the Emperor gripe was too strong!!!
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Chaotic_Serenity
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 7:04pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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Mara Jade is recognized as a dark Force user by quite a few sources, though. I don't care if Zahn retconned it or not, she *was* using the dark side if she was using it to kill. But she definitely wasn't trained as a Sith and therefore the rule doesn't apply to her. Why bother? He already has Vader. And she had her other uses. This being said, she doesn't count for now because she's EU.
This being said, I'm a bit baffled by what's a discrepency to you. Yes, Vader says Luke would be an ally...but he had no intention of Luke being an ally to Palpatine. He's lying to his master's face - he wants to use Luke to help him destroy the emperor. Which would have left only two Sith left again. No error that I can see.
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Rcatz21
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 8:50pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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Even so I still think neither of them care about the rule of two anymore because for all intensive purposes the jedi are all but extinct.
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abadfeelingaboutthis
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 9:47pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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This being said, I'm a bit baffled by what's a discrepency to you. Yes, Vader says Luke would be an ally...but he had no intention of Luke being an ally to Palpatine. He's lying to his master's face - he wants to use Luke to help him destroy the emperor. Which would have left only two Sith left again. No error that I can see.
I think there is a very important discrepancy, maybe not quite an error perhaps, in the scenario as it relates to the rule of 2. As you say Vader says that Luke would make a great ally but has no plans for him to become the Emperor's ally. The problem is that he says this to the Emperor's face:
"If he could be turned he would make a powerful ally."
"Hmmmm. Yes. Wait a minute - aren't you forgetting about The Rule of Two, Lord Vader?"
"No, my master. Actually once I had turned him to the dark side we were going to team up to kill you thus preserving the sacred Rule. You know how it is."
"Ah. Good thinking. To be honest the thought just occurred to me that I might try much the same thing but have you killed and replaced with young Skywalker instead. Anyway keep up the good work."
"OK. Later."
The two Sith are openly discussing something that, according to the Rule Of Two, could only result in the death of one of them. Or a lifetime expulsion from the Sith Club.
As for why he did not merely let Luke strike the Emperor down this also seems a little murky. I can fully understand that Vader himself may not have been able to do the job for reasons that may be explained this May, but I do not see why just being a little slower off the draw when Luke first strikes would not have been a good idea. After all Vader makes it clear that his offer still stands right up until they get to the Emperor's presence when Luke's fate will be out of his hands. So he can't have had too elaborate a plan as to how Luke/the two of them were going to frag Palps.
*The last minute before Vader & Luke meet the Emperor*
"OK. I've changed my mind. I want in."
"Good. Here's how its gonna go down. We make small talk, then he'll release your bonds and start ranting about the power of the Dark Side. Then I'll point and yell "Whoah! Isn't that Master Yoda hiding behind that railing?!" and you cut his head off with my saber while he's looking. OK?"
hh
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inkswamp
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/22/05 11:31pm
Subject:
RE: Vader knows the deal, only 2, never more, never less so why try turn LUKE?
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I don't read too much into all this. I take it as plainly as it looks.
They don't talk of making him a Sith, only of turning him to be their ally. Those are not mutually exclusive possibilities. He can be turned to the dark side without becoming a Sith. If they turn Luke to the dark side, why would you assume that the Palpatine-Vader arrangement must change? They would just have a new henchman. That would explain the Emperor's "Can it be done?" line. He's asking Vader if it's possible to turn Luke in that way.
I thought the moment where Palpatine reveals that he plans to replace Vader ("now take your father's place at my side") in ROTJ is one of the factors that causes Vader to turn on Palpatine. I think Vader genuinely believes helping to turn Luke is not dangerous to his position, doesn't understand Palpatine's true scheme to replace him with his own son.
You know when Vader says "Together we can rule the galaxy as father and son" in ESB? I think that line was only a ruse. I don't think Vader had any real plans to overthrow the Emperor, but rather was trying to appeal to any possible lust for power in Luke.
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LAME COMEBACK #2 - I can't think metaphorically so it's a PLOT HOLE
LAME COMEBACK #3 - Complex interpretations confuse me
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