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Author	Topic: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
VengeanceGOD Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 6/6/04 1:28am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Having taken several courses in swordfighting for the stage before, I can safely say that the stuff that works in real life doesn't look good in performance, and the stuff that looks good in performance in no way would work in real life. -----signature----- Director of soon-to-be (I hope) cult-favorite fanfilm duology: The Power of the Dark Side and The Power of the Jedi Currently in post-production
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MasterZap Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 3:49am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Man some of you people are "out there"... including the guy who wrote this so-called "article". I usually don't complain, but man. Reading this "article" makes me understand even more the hardships of actually trying to make a movie. Man. Every person from every little field of moviemaking you encounter has this mad delusion that their little piece is the most important, and their little thing must be done in "the most correct/realistic/best/etc" way (read "the way they want it"). It now fully dawns on me the pain and agony of being a director on a big production, and trying to get the larger goal of getting the final result out, when the people who are supposed to do the job is a bunch of whiny stuck-ups such as this. And of course, I fully realize the impossibility of ever pleasing an audience with a good film, because everybody have their own little definition of whats "good". To me, lightsaber combat should be to heighten dramatic tension. To me, the lightsaber combat I enjoy most, is the stuff between the strikes. "You can't win, Darth" is the important part. The flashes of light in between are just markers of tension. Nothing else. How they are performed is pretty much one hundred percent irrelevant, as long as they are delivered in the proper dramatic way. This is why the OT battles shine, and the PT battles largely suck, again, IMHO. The OT battles have proper drama, while the PT battles are more about "mindless action". Whats dramatic about "I'm taking him now", and Anakin jumping in to get hacked up? Puh-leeze. The taunting between the blows is a hundred million times more important than what goes on in the blows. In fanfilms, I think the battle that best conveyed this, and you amy roll on your floors laughing, but I honestly think the best lightsaber battle in fanfilms is.. ... ... in Dark Skies. At least to me, the suspension of disbelief worked, the Drama works. The battle means something. But this is not quite the same as what the article author is saying, sure, he wants to "behave as we are in a fight" and have "emotional intensity". Sure, but you get that in any street fight with a knife, which are rather boring to watch, and the level of "Drama" is enerally below the belt on a much rawer adrenaline level, not on a more "high level" battle-of-the-wills Dramatic level. I dunno what I am trying to say, but, I think that trying to make a fight seem like a "real" fight just for the sake of "realism" CAN be a worthy goal or can be the dumbest thing you ever did. What is the CONTEXT of the fight, what does it MEAN, dramatically, in the story arc? What is the STYLISTICALLY PROPER way to handle it? It all depends on what you are aiming for with the film. Throwing out meaningless absolutes such as this "article" where "films should have more realistic swordfighting" is just... dumb. Next thing we should have more realistic sex (lose the L-shaped sheets, more grunting and "ouch I twisted my elbow"), more realistic murders (people skreaming like pigs for an hour while coughing up blood after taking a bullet, while defecating on themselves and rambling "mommy mommy" and finally dying with a horrible grimace on their face rather than "instantly fall down, give a great speech, close eyes and look peaceful"), more realistic people (no more waking up with a magic makeup and hairdo) and so on and so forth. 'tis an artform. It's stylistic. Get over it. I'm all for 360s, heck, why not a 1280-double-bucky flipback halfslice with a T-bone hammerhead? /Z -----signature----- mental ray Tips blog - http://www.mentalraytips.com ZapTroNic Visuals - http://www.ZapTroNic.com Oldschool Homepage - http://www.Master-Zap.com FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER - http://twitter.com/masterzap
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Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/6/04 5:42am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	But Zap, isn't one of the reasons some fan film fights don't look very good (i.e. they look fake and/or choreographed) is because they don't look very realistic? I think that's the point Clements is trying to make. He doesn't say he's looking at it from a director's or choreographer's perspective. That's where the style or art form comes from, not from successive stick banging. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
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MasterZap Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 7:38am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/6/04 7:47am (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterZap
	The fights may look bad because of bad rehersal or unexperience fighters or "too obviously rehearsed routine" or whatever. But that is not the reason they are bad. A fight can look bad but still be great. A fight can look great and be bad. The fights in the OT for the most part look pretty weak, but they are great, because they fulfill a dramatic purpouse. The fights in the PT look cool, but their dramatic purpouse is weak at best. (And the PT fights still do not look "realistic"). I think before even considering the area of a fight looking good, one should consider the concept of the fight making dramatic sense. Generally, realistic fights are pretty dull to watch too. If you want a realistic lightsaber fight, look at the 0.8 second fight from Planet With No Name. Now in that film, that style served a purpouse, sort of showing the "ninja like" qualities of that fighter. That's fine. Look, it had a purpouse (Now one can wonder if the overall story of PwNN had a purpouse, but that's not the point right now ) I dunno, I take Sir Alec Guniess saying "You can't win, Darth" or the ROTJ duel any day over anything that happens in the PT from a dramatic standpoint. What was the purpouse of the fight with Darth Maul? He was a "bad guy", and they opened a can of whoop-ass on the "bad guy"... well duh. The purpouse of Obi-Wan fighting Vader in ANH was soooo many layers deeper. It went way way WAY beyond "lets go open a can of whoop-ass on the bad guy". I think my problem with many of the fights in the PT is they are "sought out". Someone is running around randomly, and more or less stumbles on an opponent, whoopsee, big fight ensues. In the OT, the protagonists are on a path to a goal. The "bad guys" come up as obstacles on that path. Meaningful combat ensues. To me, there is a difference, and that difference is much more important than if they do 360's or not or if it looks "realistic" from a martial artists skewed viewpoint. I think a prostitute finds most movie sex unrealistic, and a police officer finds most movie shooting unrealstic, and most real criminals find most movie crime unrealistic, and most cooks finds most movie cooking unrealistic, and most painters find most movie painting unrealistic, and most tapdancers find most movie tap dancing unrealistic, and most helicopter pilots finds most helicopter piloting unrealsitic, and most inflatable rubber duck glue mixing specialists find the mixing of glue for inflatable rubber ducks unrealistic and...... so on... ...not to mention the fact that I, with over 20 years of experience of computers, 15 of those as a professional high-level software engineer, finds most, if not all portrayals of computers in movies EXTREMELY unrealistic. Yet, I don't complain much since I understand the dramatic purpouse of oversimplifying computers for the audience. (Except as done in Hackers - thats gross ) /Z -----signature----- mental ray Tips blog - http://www.mentalraytips.com ZapTroNic Visuals - http://www.ZapTroNic.com Oldschool Homepage - http://www.Master-Zap.com FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER - http://twitter.com/masterzap
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Crunchy Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:22am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I agree with Zap on the last two paragraphs -----signature----- Ryan Dube Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows it? A RISING THREAT™ site: http://www.arisingthreat.com/ ART™ forums: http://bmcforums.image22.net/index.php ART™ online store: http://www.arisingthreat.com/store.asp
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Jedi_Spiff Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:37am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Now one can wonder if the overall story of PwNN had a purpose Huh? Overall story? You mean the reckless genocide of the Sith? I mean really! All they ever did was wear black!!! Obviously it didn't have a story, though the purpose was to demonstrate ideas. Specific shots had a purpose or were referential, and the reason the 0.8 s fight is the last one in the flick was to simultaneously glorify and mock the precision, speed and directness of true martial arts. Thanks for the plug! The way I see it, martial arts exchanges exist in movies for any number of reasons. Sometimes, and only sometimes, it's to heighten the dramatic tension like you describe, other times it is simply violence - the physical exchange between two people, and sometimes it's essentially dance - meant to be visually poetic entertainment. The problem with movie fighting is that it attempts to combine them all - which is no easy task. The reason so many film (not JUST fan film) fights are poor, is because the combination of all of these is very difficult to acheive. Approaching it from one perspective - that of the martial artist, will not result in a successful presentation. Like Zap said - all experts loathe the presentation of their field in most movies. For example, I work in MRI - the ONLY movie I've seen it done reasonably correctly in, believe it or not, was "The One" with Jet Li... but of course that had some questionable physics in it as well. Anyway - there's certainly no harm in hearing the martial artist perspective. The only catch for me is, when I hear someone is a "professional swordfighter" I start wondering what the body count is, and why they're not in prison. There really aren't a lot of opportunities to test theories about the "reality of combat". Which is why the movies are so darned fun! -Spiff -----signature----- "There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there's a Canadian taxpayer." - RCAF Now a member of the unofficial Master Zap fanclub. PwNN: http://wbm.zenutech.com/WBFilm/SWPlanet.html
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Just_Joe Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 11:08am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	360 degree turns are bad!? UH OH................ I have one of those in my fight, not to mention alot of taunting from the "I am so gonna whoop your @$$!" variety. Oh well, I've been working on my short fight for a little over a year, delayed alot because of work and lots of "taking a break" periods....but now it's finally down to just editing the sound effects better! Mesa am so happy. -----signature----- * SIMPSON QUOTES * Maude: We're talking about S-E-X, in front of the C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N! Krusty: Sex cauldron!? I thought they closed that place down!
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Lightsaber_Style8675 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/6/04 2:53pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	What was the purpouse of the fight with Darth Maul? He was a "bad guy", and they opened a can of whoop-ass on the "bad guy"... well duh. Well...ummm. When they were at the door and it opened, and Darth Maul appeared I guess they could've ran away and left Padme to be slaughtered... that would give the Jedi a really good name. Obi-Wan had a pretty good reason to fight Maul... seeing as Maul killed his master and all... And Dooku taunts Obi-Wan in Episode II's duel. My thoughts on the matter of realism: If your going for a realistic fight then don't have any fancy spins and cool looking moves. If you want an impressive, cool-looking fight, then make it that way. -----signature----- J-Dawg Productions Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, and Dodge! "If Ignorance is Bliss, why aren't more people happy?" "Why do they lock gas station bathrooms? Are they afraid someone will clean them?"
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DMPjedi Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 6/6/04 4:53pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	You want a dose of 360s? Watch An Occurance in Some Backyard I still laugh at myself in that one Oh and the fight has "purpose" if you can read the opening -----signature----- Nate Caauwe - VFX Supervisor, Movie Spoof 2 & 3 http://PixelCorps.com DMPjedi is not here right now, please leave a message with NateCaauwe after the beep. Beep.
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JediLiberator Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 6/6/04 5:19pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I liked the commentary in terms of talking about acting as though you're involved in a life or death contest. That's really more of an acting thing that anybody can improve on. As for using realistic moves, I think that you can still make simple straight forward sword fighting seem interesting if you change the angle of the camera or shoot sections of a duel in slow motion. Just look at the fights in the last samarai. Simple lethal effiecency made into engaging entertainment. Or even the fights in A Knight's tale. You don't need fancy sword, or in this case saber, movements to make a fight look good. -----signature----- The only justice you shall ever have is the justice you make for yourself
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MasterZap Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 11:17pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Well...ummm. When they were at the door and it opened, and Darth Maul appeared I guess they could've ran away and left Padme to be slaughtered... that would give the Jedi a really good name. Obi-Wan had a pretty good reason to fight Maul... seeing as Maul killed his master and all... They were not on a path to a clear goal, and going through the door wasn't a clear point on the clear path to a clear goal. And the fight was just a fight. It dodn't have the deeper meaning of the ANH fight. The ANH fight WOULD have just been a fight, if Obi-Wan hadn't sacrificed himself intentionally. And Dooku taunts Obi-Wan in Episode II's duel. Empty, meaningless taunts yes. Nothing with any dramatic depth. /Z -----signature----- mental ray Tips blog - http://www.mentalraytips.com ZapTroNic Visuals - http://www.ZapTroNic.com Oldschool Homepage - http://www.Master-Zap.com FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER - http://twitter.com/masterzap
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VengeanceGOD Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 6/7/04 3:35am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	The difference you're seeing is two different styles of fighting. One draws you in with story, the other with flashy moves. There were good story reasons for the PT fights, but nothing compared to the fights in the OT. In terms of the topic at hand, I really really really think it's a bad idea to try and be realistic in a lightsaber fight. What I think is the best out and out fight on this site, Ryan vs. Dorkman, is completely unrealistic. Take a look at the awesome fights in the Matrix for another example. Even thought I didn't really enjoy the movies, I bought the DVDs of reloaded and revolutions just for the Neo/Smith fights. They're beyond unrealistic, but you love them for that "HOLY CRAP DID HE JUST DO THAT???" feel. IMO, that's a better movie fight than any realism you can get. -----signature----- Director of soon-to-be (I hope) cult-favorite fanfilm duology: The Power of the Dark Side and The Power of the Jedi Currently in post-production
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Saintheart Title: RPF Manager/Kensai Emeritus Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 4:19am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Guys, I think Clements is ultimately making the point that while flashy and unrealistic does look cool and can work, to imbue a fight with a certain dose of reality does wonders for its believability to all sectors of the population. He's got a point in that lightsaber combat would theoretically be a lot less movement and less flashy than it is in the movies. It's a massless blade, right? Cuts through anything? Has effectively an edge at all 360 degrees of its shape? Musashi's "Beating down the Corners" technique would've worked wonders for it--aim for the guy's hands or his weapon first. Take off a few fingers with a little wiggle of the blade and you don't need flashy anymore; your opponent cannot stop your strike if he has no hand to hold the weapon. Kendo, which for me seems to represent most closely the theoretical saber combat style, was always about ending a fight in one or two strikes, not two hundred. Go take another look at "The Seven Samurai" by Kurosawa and see how sword work's done in that. Kurosawa threw dozens of opponents at his warriors to make the fights last longer, but they still obey the style: one or two cuts and an opponent's down. But that's not what a Star Wars film is about. We want flash, and we want some flamboyance. There's nothing wrong with that. Take what Clements says on board or don't; he's not setting down rules. What works is what you think works. -----signature----- Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife. Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007 Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood . Yes, I'm still here, but can only check in x1 per day. Please be patient!
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Leigh_Jesani Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/7/04 11:19am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Just have to add my two cents worth: As it has already been said, ACTUAL martial arts and film choreography are two totally different things. Though choreography is loosely based on the real thing, there is a reason why real technique and strategy is not used for film. First of all--battles would be way too short. If you have ever practiced kendo, you know that one hit kills. Of course in real life it is ridiculous to spin around recklessly, do flips and butterfly kicks, etc. But film is a visual art, and thus is designed to be flashy and convey the emotions of the artists involved. And thus, flashy moves, spins, etc. all look very cool, whereas in real life, a true martial artist would attempt to defeat their opponent in the most efficient method possible and at the first available opportunity, lest it cost them their life. But he makes some valid points--feeling is important. If the actors simply mimic their practiced movements, the audience has a difficult time in believing their motive for battle. As stated before-- Choreography is NOT realistic combat, and thus probably should not be critiqued as such. -----signature----- "I'm sorry...it was an accident." "An accident?! You put your sword through his head!" "Oh dear...is he alright?"
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Joey_Rage Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 6/10/04 8:45am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Zap Youre a friggin' genius, Youve said almost everything i was think as I read the "article" I myself am a experienced martial artist and have participated in pretty much all the various martial arts he mentioned, From TaeKwonDo to Judo to SCA to Escrima. Im also a experienced dramaticist and have worked on numerous stage productions. I was so annoyed reading the pontifficating self-righteous dribble of someone who has no experience in artisic swordplay for the stage or screen. I have met many of his type over the years in the swordplay and martial arts world, people who are convinced of their style's own superiority and think that everyone who does not conform to their ideal has no idea what their doing. GIMMIE A BREAK!!!! A dramatic fight can in no way conform to the parameter of real fight. Hence the amazing difference between watching UFC and a jackie Chan Film, or watching a lightsbaer duel or an SCA match. Trying to actually hit your fellow stuntman is just stupid. If you talk to any Stuntman in Hollywood, they will tell you. No movie is worth maiming or killing yourself for. Anyway most of what I have to say was already said brilliantly by Master Zap. Good luck on all of our projects. Rage
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