Jedi Council Forums - Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?

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Author	Topic: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:34pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	As you may have gathered Syntax my main focus is more on what I see as hijacking of the term to pursue pointless agendas of inter-fan bickering. I'm not seeing how it's "hijacking". LFL's usage of the term "canon" is very clear, and it's also very clear as to their stance on what is canon and what is not. And then we get to the purists, some of whom seem to think that LFL's word is "irrelevant" (that LFL simply says the EU is canon "to cash in on it", or "to make more money", for example, as if they can know LFL's "intentions", and as if those intentions even matter anyway), or that their opinions outweigh the word of LFL. THAT is where 100% of all canon "debates" come from. The difference between fact and opinion. I've been saying it for years. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:44pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Whatever. It's irrelevant to my main concern, clarified above. Though it's a bit ironic you seem to be attempting to basically argue for one definition of canon over others, a canonity of canon definitions in an EU canon debate! JB -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:48pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 2:50pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	There is no canon definition that is more canon than others, just definitions used for different kinds of topics. I was simply only pointing out the one that is closest to the topic that LFL uses it for, "Literature". It's a matter of context, and the context we are discussing is "Literature" is it not?
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:49pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 2:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi Ben
	You really have had your sense of humour surgically removed, haven't you? Yes this is the Lit forum, but that doesn't change or stop the possibility, if not reality, of SW fans abusing the term 'canon'. How does this work? Pretty basic really: Poster posts an opinion, opinion is shot down on the basis of 'not being canon'. That this opinion is not valid or allowed within a discussion forum, isn't that insane? Yes there are the various restrictions and required etiquette (which shifts from forum to forum) but for one poster to shoot down an opinion on the basis 'it's not canon', which would be their singular, subjective judgement, (and no, the shooter is NOT a Mod.) is an abuse of the term. Very few posters consider their selves to be claiming their positions = LFLs, the majority consider their opinions to simply be theirs. But there's always someone around to yell 'it's not canon' or that 'the Eu isn't canon' or other rubbish. Whose problem is it? Certainly not LFLs but the fans'. We collectively created this mess and it's up to us to sort it out. JB -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:51pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 2:59pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"You really have had your sense of humour surgically removed, haven't you?" Despite what you just said that could be taken as an insult... . No, it depends on what is funny to me(its true of everyone, not everything is going to be funny to every individual person). I find this to be a pretty serious topic, you never pointed out smileys of any indication that you were trying to be funny, nothing about this topic has pointed out to be some kind of humor topic, so it appeared that you were trying to be serious.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:59pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	You mean you don't find the sheer wordplay amusing? Ah well each to their own. Jb -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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snarf5181 Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 9/1/03 3:50pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	I guess I would be considered a completist, as I think everything can and does fit together to form a larger story. I think its fine some people don't like certain things like GoDV or DE (both of which I enjoy). I just think its dumb when they argue that they didn't happen cause they don't fit. I don't think its right to say what things you are and aren't allowed to think (obviously :P ), I just think while you are posting you should leave that at the door. Believe what you want, but when it comes time to discuss how many clone cylinders the emporer had on byss, whether or not DE is 'real' star wars isn't up for debate. LFL's word is final there, otherwise theres no point in trying to discuss the EU here. --Snarf (hope I made some sense :P )
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DarthTerrious Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 6:13pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Val, you're a pain in the arse. Just keep quiet. You've said the same things over and over yawn. Oh and I don't like how some of you EU'ers just completely miss us Purists points here. Look LFL can say what they like, that to me is fine they have control over what they believe is apart of the Star Wars universe. But like many purists (informed ones mostly), I choose not to take what the LFL "policy" says but just my own opinion. Despite me overruling LFL with my own person opinion, I am aware of how the EU is viewed in this forum and by LFL, which is why I decline to debate issues where the movies, IMHO, have been contradicted by the EU's story on the particular subject (stormtroopers being one, Dooku & Yoda being another, and many more besides). Now that is JUST my opinion, its not a fact or the truth, just what I choose to believe. Everyone else can believe what they want. But me? I'll just accept the movie as the Star Wars story. -----signature----- In Keano we trust. ITFC through and through.
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 6:19pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 7:40pm (10 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"Val, you're a pain in the arse. Just keep quiet." Now that was mature wasn't it, ?:\|, ... I haven't discussed what I think of you personally, or told you to shut up, yet you feel like discussing what you think of me personally by calling me a "pain in the arse", and telling me to shut up.... Wow... ... I wonder what the mods would think of that... ?:\| "Despite me overruling LFL with my own person opinion" You simply can't overrule LFL with your opinion, you do not own the copyrights to star wars, you do not own star wars. only lucasfilm owns star wars, and since they own the copyrights to the franchise they have the right to define what "is and isn't" of what they own by law. You simply can only have an oppinion contradictory to the only official copyrighted facts on the matter. But that is your right to think that. But both answers simply can't be correct, only one or the other can be correct, unless we are in some kind of Orwellian future where fallacies such as doublespeak, and doublethink is simply a way of life... In this case LFL owns the copyrights to define what is and what isn't the facts of their fiction.
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ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Title: Moderator Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 6:38pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 6:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ST-TPM-ASF-TNE
	The EU is definately canon, but there are some things which contridict the movies in the film novels. In The Phantom Menace novel we are told Qui-Gon's Master was over 400 years old. In the A New Hope novel Jabba is described much different than how he looks; Yoda is described much different than how he looks as well in The Empire Strikes Back novel. There's also the Owen/Obi-Wan brother issue in the Return of the Jedi novel. The EU is canon and I definately enjoy it, but it does have contradiction every so often (which is understandable). The thing I've hated more than anything with the EU is the "Reborn Emperor" idea. It was certainly an interesting concept, but I felt it took away from the importaince of Anakin/Vader killing Palpatine in The Return of the Jedi. I also didn't like that Luke gave in to the darkside. -----signature----- Angela Why so serious?
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 6:48pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 7:38pm (10 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"In The Phantom Menace novel we are told Qui-Gon's Master was over 400 years old." Well you have to understand he was a youngling once. I think the EU's explanation was that he was one of Yaddle's Younglings. That would explain the 400 year given age for one of his masters, as she was said to be a little over 400 years old. "In the A New Hope novel Jabba is described much different than how he looks;" That was explained away in EGTC, Jabba employs stands ins, that go by the name Jabba, Heater(from the radio drama) was one of these stand ins according to the book. "One of Jabba's more unique employees was a fat, grotesque man named Heater. His job was to pose as Jabba for public functions." -EGTC "Yoda is described much different than how he looks as well in The Empire Strikes Back novel." He was said to be blue, wow that's really bad mistake. This has a simple explanation. On a movie making standpoint, Yoda was going to originally be blue, but they couldn't make him blue because it wouldn't work on a blue screen, so they made him green instead. The novel was already published(or sent off to be), so it couldn't be fixed in time. On a standpoint for those that have to have an inuniverse explanation, it's a trick of light through the swamp gas making Yoda appear to be blue occasionally, . Other than that, it's no real big deal... As for the violet yoda in some comic adaptations, it was fixed in later editions, making him green.
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The_Man_with_No_Name Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 9/1/03 7:18pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Valiento posted 8:33 am, September 1: “The ICS books are canon. They don't carry the "Infinities" icon, so are considered part of canon. Chris ranked canon, i.e., the films and novelizations come first... meaning that if something in an EU novel or comic book or whatever contradicts something in the film, the film is more "true." Books in the EU are considered part of the canon of the universe.” -Star Wars Editor, Sue Rostoni, starwars.com VIP thread (emphasis mine) Another time is with Yoda, VD implies that Dooku was the Padawan of Yoda. But instead the later EU decided to interpret that he only taught Dooku as a young child in the clan, and later on Dooku received another master instead (and that dooku had only a few sword duels with yoda at that point). Not only does the Visual Dictionary imply that Dooku was Yoda’s Padawan, I’d say the movie itself implied that. Yet here we have a direct example of where the film is not being considered more “true.” There was no reason for the EU to alter this perception after the fact. The movie came first. The thousands of people walking out of the theater know Dooku as Yoda’s padawan. Yet only those who read the story written after the movie’s release will “know” this to be false. How does this help Lucas himself? What was the point? Through the movies alone he is telling a story and revealing the information that he wants the audience to be aware of, to create certain emotions and tensions. What good does this do him if only a “select few” who read specific books or comics truly understand? The Yoda/Dooku duel is more tense, and a bigger deal story-wise when we realize that Dooku has gone to the Dark Side, despite his teacher being arguably the wisest Jedi. The duel is also made to be more personal, and the effect on Yoda’s character development will be for his guilt to weigh more heavily and personally because the start of the Clone Wars lead indirectly back to him (Yoda’s own apprentice having a big hand in starting them), and Anakin’s turn and hunt of the Jedi also leads back to Yoda (Yoda to Dooku to Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan to Anakin). Anakin’s failure leads back to Yoda, in that if Yoda had been able to do better with Dooku, Qui-Gon may not have been such a rogue, etc. Taking away Dooku as Yoda’s personal Padawan downplays a lot of the emotion present and implied in the movie saga. I read most of the EU, and enjoy some of it, but for me, for reasons like what I posted above, the movies will come first, and when the EU feels free to ignore the spirit or implications of the movies, I will feel free to ignore the EU.
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Gandalf the Grey Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 7:21pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	People in general: stop with the harassing of Valiento. Valiento: lighten up for goodness sakes. -----signature----- I play far, far too much World of Warcraft. L70s on Staghelm: Hopefire (Paladin), Silverbow (Hunter), Shadowhope (Rogue), Silverfire (Mage)
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 7:29pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 7:34pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Syntax
	Yes there are the various restrictions and required etiquette (which shifts from forum to forum) but for one poster to shoot down an opinion on the basis 'it's not canon', which would be their singular, subjective judgement, (and no, the shooter is NOT a Mod.) is an abuse of the term. Well, it's when you get people who act like their opinions are facts, or totally don't realize that fan-speculation and theories and such are NOT canon, that people (such as myself or Val here) will mention that their opinions aren't canon, and are not endorsed by LFL in any way. Very few posters consider their selves to be claiming their positions = LFLs, the majority consider their opinions to simply be theirs. As a member of the EUDF who has been in many "canon debates" and has interacted with many purists, I can say that that's not true. The whole mantra of many (note: not all) purists is that their word is somehow more valid than LFL's for whatever reason. I'm just speaking from my own personal experience in the 2 years I've been on the JC. Look LFL can say what they like, that to me is fine they have control over what they believe is apart of the Star Wars universe. ...but what LFL says is what IS true. Your word literally means nothing in the face of LFL's statements. Like I said, it's the difference between fact and opinion. But like many purists (informed ones mostly), I choose not to take what the LFL "policy" says but just my own opinion. See, JediBen, case in point. A purist who thinks their word outranks that of LFL. They do exist. DarthTerrious, your statement is akin to me going out and killing someone, and then saying "Well, I don't think murder is a crime, so you can't prosecute me!". Last I checked, you didn't make the rules regarding what is actually a legitemate part of the Star Wars universe and what is not. LFL does that. Ignorance of a subject (or its contents) and denial is not an excuse. ...where the movies, IMHO, have been contradicted by the EU's story on the particular subject (stormtroopers being one, Dooku & Yoda being another, and many more besides). Um, there are many threads in the Lit forum covering such "contradictions", which don't actually exist. Now that is JUST my opinion, its not a fact or the truth, just what I choose to believe. Everyone else can believe what they want. But me? I'll just accept the movie as the Star Wars story. Okay, which brings us back to the crux of the matter, the "illogical" purist mindset I referenced earlier. Why even hold your own opinion if you KNOW it's not correct, in the face of what LFL (the only authorized party to make such decisions) has said? ?:\| That was explained away in EGTC, Jabba employs stands ins, that go by the name Jabba, Heater(from the radio drama) was one of these stand ins according to the book. I'm pretty sure the 'Tales from Jabba's Palace' story about Mara Jade has one of Jabba's "stand-ins", too. The thousands of people walking out of the theater know Dooku as Yoda’s padawan. Yet only those who read the story written after the movie’s release will “know” this to be false. That's really, really irrelevant. People cite that "reason" all the time on the Terminator3.com forums as a reason for the Terminator EU to not be canon. "No one's read the comics/novels, so they're not canon". Is that really my problem? Is that the license-owners' problem? No. That's your problem. Here's an analogy: you're out researching, say... the life and times of Winston Churchill as a child. Everyone "knows" some fact about Churchill when he was a teenager... but then you find a manuscript written by Churchill himself or something that proves it wrong. You've got the only copy, and it's really obscure, and no one else had read it but you. By your logic, the manuscript is "false", on the lone basis that no one else has heard of the manuscript, let alone read it. Do you see the flaw in that logic? Saying "no one's heard of it/read it/will read it" is not a defense for something to not be canon, or not be acknowledged. That's the "ignorance" defense, and it doesn't hold up. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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masterskywalker Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 7:35pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	"Valiento: lighten up for goodness sakes." Why should he? He's intelegently responded to every question put to him, dispite being rudely insulted. I wasn't aware it was moderater policy to intercede on the losing side of a debate. Val brought up some good points, and so far I haven't seen any intelegent responses to his points about LFL policy. I'm enjoying how this plays out. -----signature----- Peace to corrupt, no less than war to waste.
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