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Author	Topic: There is no Canon?
MasterControlProgram Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:17am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Pablo Hidalgo AND Leland Chee'S comments mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. The canon changes only if LUCAS wants to change it. Nothing in the EU will ever be allowed to trump the canon movies.
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:19am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 9:24am (3 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	Lucas never really said anything about Canon (as he has never specifically said the word, if someone can prove otherwise show me the source of him using the term), so there is really no reason to bring him into this... I mean, he's never said there is or isn't a canon specifically, , so he's kind of irrelevent, . Besides its not nice to put words into his mouth, .
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:27am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	We went from 1977 to 1992 without having any Star Wars canon policies. Fifteen years. Then, we went from 1992 to 1997 with the first major change, Rick McC's canon heirarchy which removed the EU from canon. Five years. Then, we went from 1997 to 2001. with the next major change. Gamer 3's putting Marvel's Star Wars series back into canon. Four years. Then, later on that year, the whole rest of the EU that's not Infinities was brought back as canon. Six months. Since that time, for the last two years we've seen more frequent and more bewildering policies show up. Sometimes just weeks apart. At this rate, we'll be getting new official policies daily. I just want to say that since Lucas gave the drugs up in the '70's, it's about time that LFL's EU handlers do so as well. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:37am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 9:48am (10 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"Gamer 3's putting Marvel's Star Wars series back into canon." Don't cite gamer 3, unless you can quote it accurately, it actually wasn't entirely fair with Marvel, and didn't give it 100% validity. "Obviously, in many places those films contradicted what had happened in the comics. Which ones are more important? The films, of course. However Lucasfilm recognizes the creativity and diversity within the Marvel comics and feels there is a place for non-continuity events...Elements from the Marvel comics that don't tread upon that which has been established in the films, novels, comics, et cetera, are being integrated into the official star wars canon because we like them, they're cool, the aliens will be fun to use in the RPG..." In no way did they say that all of marvel was part of the continuity, infact it went as far to say some of the events are "non-continuity", and many things in the "films contradicted them, and the films are more valid". Also it didn't say that all of the comics were incorporated into the official canon, but only "elements" from the comics that they deemed didn't tread on any of the other star wars material that has been written over the years. That is what they felt about marvel at that point in time, and many of the VIPs are still saying at Starwars.com, Darkhorse, and what not... But everyone knows the editors don't agree with each other, and each view the continuity in different ways, which means actual contradicting policies cropping up, like they are on drugs as you claim, ... We can add, Stradley's comments from darkhorse on what he was told about continuity from the editors, and even brings up the good point about how the various editors do not agree with each other, ; They've specifically told me, in regards to the Marvel stories, that events that can be fit into continuity are continutiy. Things that don't fit are apocraphal. However, given that such pronouncements tend to change depending on when they're made and who makes them, who can say? Regarding the Mandalorians, I was happy to try to find a place for them in the Clone Wars comics . . . until that didn't seem enough for certain parties. After all of the begging, demanding, screaming, and shouting that's has transpired, I'm no longer inclined to make any mention of the the Mandalorians. Certainly, the way it supposedly happens in the Marvel continuity (the Mandalorians fought on the side of the Emperor during the Clone Wars, with Leia being specifically mentioned as an enemy of the Empire) could not have happened. There was no "Emperor" during the Clone Wars, and Leia wasn't even born yet
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MasterControlProgram Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:53am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Lucas never really said anything about Canon (as he has never specifically said the word, if someone can prove otherwise show me the source of him using the term), so there is really no reason to bring him into this... I mean, he's never said there is or isn't a canon specifically, Besides its not nice to put words into his mouth That's a huge Red Herring, dude! The SW films are "canon" without Lucas having to actually say that word, since no EU content will EVER override what we see in the movies. Lucas IS the ultimate canon spokesman, and if he chooses to allow an EU source to override a canon one, its still at his behest.
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/7/04 10:01am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 10:14am (9 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	Well, in real life, Canon is not generally something defined by the person/s who write's something, but generally by a council of peers, who either work under, or work above the writers to sanction or accept the material, go look in a dictionary. This is especially true, when one notices that the writers of things in most cases, tend to be dead, by the time a group comes around to accept or sanction them. a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council b : a provision of canon law 3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature> 4 a : an accepted principle or rule b : a criterion or standard of judgment c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms If Lucas actually defined canon, only the movies would be canon most likely, as he has made comments that the EU doesn't mean much to him(despite the fact that he has used parts of the EU in the movies, "as well stating that his story is only 1 of 1000s stories left to tell in the universe"-SOTME). But since he doesn't deal with defining the actual canon himself, its up to his editors, and other LFL vips to do it for him, which is why canon varies widely per each editor. But the general agreement, is that while most things are canon, the movies are "absolute". "EU content will EVER override what we see in the movies." Let's see, Palpatine claims that the republic had only been around for just over 1000 years. The EU overides it and made the republic last 25,000 years, choosing to follow what Obi-Wan said in ANH, in order to protect the EU's history. Dooku's ship is called the Solar Sailer, but in the EU there is nothing solar about it, it uses mysterious gree energy waves in order to fly. There is sound in space in the movies, but in the EU there is no sound in space, except in few circumstances involving atmosphere pockets and other phenomena that the EU chose to explain sound occuring in space... Plus a handful of other things throughout the movies.
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Shadeleader Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 10:07am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	yes, but don't give credit where it isn't due. Lucas has become the Azathoth of the Star Wars universe, gyrating mindlessly at the center of it all while his toadies play in time to his chaotic, mind-bending dance. Val is right; as far as I know, Lucas himself has never made a direct statement about what is canon one way or another.
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JediJSolo Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/7/04 10:44am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 10:47am (1 edits total) Edited By: JediJSolo
	Valiento: Well, actually JediJSolo, "History" isn't a word that specifically defined to only real life, but under one official definition also "stories, and tales", so yes his use of the word is highly valid under one definition of it. Language is defined by its usage, not the dictionary. Technically, a history is also defined as a story; but not in the way I used it in that post. A record of actual events is also a completely legitimate definition, and obviously that’s the one I was using. I did so in an attempt to show that the difference between “badly tampering with footage” and “pour special effects work” is negligible, as they both do the exact same thing to the story. Vympel’s argument seemed based on physical elements in the real world, rather than elements within the actual story. That is why I made the contrast between real history, and fictional story. But now that you bring up artistic revisionism, I apologize to Vympel, if indeed that is what he was actually talking about. -----signature----- The Force reflects the life that creates it... Constructive criticism or reviews requested: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/20439765/?3
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/7/04 10:51am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 11:16am (12 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"Language is defined by its usage, not the dictionary. Technically, a history is also defined as a story; but not in the way I used it in that post. A record of actual events is also a completely legitimate definition, and obviously that’s the one I was using." The problem is you can't say that his usage was incorrect, and say yours is the only right one, and more valid. His language was defined by how he used it, and his usage was very valid and legitimate. You simply can't attack his use of the word, as he used it accurately under one way of using the word. You won't win, by trying to tell him that his use of the word is wrong, since he did have a legimate use of the word. I might not agree with everything he says, but still you can't go about attacking syntax when syntax is valid. I'm not attacking your definition of the word, however neither can you attack his. The only thing that can be pointed out is there are more than one definition, and each can be legitamately used by each person's context. He had had his legitimate context, and you can't attack someone's context, as that isn't a legitimate tactic. Who shot first does change the story, however slightly in the context of the movie, but more so in expanded versions of the story... As does changing or removing phrases, for example, "You didn't taste very well". Who talked to Han; Jabba the Heater, Jabba the Hutt, or Mosep "Jabba the Hut", does effect the story. Who really fell in love with the lamproid, a man in a cheap wolf mask, or a cheaply used elephant? Who was hiding in the background another cheap man in a wolf mask (defel), or the other half of a cheaply used elephant? That effects the stories... Did Anakin hold hands, at his wedding, or did he have them at his side? That is a story element that gives a touch of character to Anakin, changing it changes the mood of the scene however slight. Did Orn Fre Taa, have Human Attendants or Twilek Attendents(yes human attendents were digitially removed)? That effects stories. List goes on... The floating oil blob under the speeder as an example doesn't effect the story, as both show a speeder floating across the desert, and in effect doesn't really apply... As for the rotoscoping you brought up? Well, actually the current released video copies of the film, went back to the bad rotoscoping or so I've heard. So I guess that's Lucas, new definitive view of the scenes. Even if its more of a visual history of the making of the films more so than historical record of history, unless its some kind of lightsaber technological history in-universe.
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JediJSolo Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/7/04 10:55am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	His language was defined by how he used it, and his usage was very valid and legitimate. I took his argument about real elements in reality to mean he was actually arguing about real elements in reality, therefore negating the “fictional story” definition of the word “history”. Anyway, moving on… -----signature----- The Force reflects the life that creates it... Constructive criticism or reviews requested: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/20439765/?3
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/7/04 11:07am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Well, I think its a matter that you might both have slightly different contexts, and both aren't picking up on each others entirely, and misreading each other. But you are right, best to move on, .
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MasterControlProgram Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 11:36am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Well, in real life, Canon is not generally something defined by the person/s who write's something, but generally by a council of peers, We're talking about Lucas' movie, not that standard dictionary definition. And as he's said before "Its my thing." Nothing in the EU will be allowed to override him, as he's proven time and again with the prequel movies. (Jaster Mereel anyone?) Let's see, Palpatine claims that the republic had only been around for just over 1000 years. The EU overides it and made the republic last 25,000 years, choosing to follow what Obi-Wan said in ANH, in order to protect the EU's history. This is a very convoluted statement. The "thousand generations" quote CAME from the canon movie. The EU did not override any movie at all. And the "Thousand years" statement was addressed in a recent Insider, which stated Palpatine meant the current Republic without any wars. Dooku's ship is called the Solar Sailer, but in the EU there is nothing solar about it, it uses mysterious gree energy waves in order to fly. What does this have to do with EU overriding canon? Did anyone in AOTC say either , "There goes Dooku, flying away in his solar sailer"? or "There goes Dooku, flying away in his gree energy sailer"? There is sound in space in the movies, but in the EU there is no sound in space, except in few circumstances involving atmosphere pockets and other phenomena that the EU chose to explain sound occuring in space... Again, what does this have to do with EU overriding canon? The EU in this instance chose to explain a canon phenomenon, while still being subordinate to the canon!
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Baron_Daniel_Fel Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 1/7/04 11:40am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	But then what would anything matter in the point of listing offical and canon? This would be no different then Paramount by saying only what Gene does is canon because of his statement "If it's not done by me, it's not Star Trek" Thus limiting Trek canon to TOS, and a couple seasons of TNG and possibly one book and movie. If we go down that route then any discussion will be overriden by another source and literally lead to a chaotic mishmash that only reason another person is right is by definition that people believe said statement has a higher intrinsic value. So no, we have to believe Lucas, the creator of everything is of canon and that the EU allows portals if you will into his universe that he never covered with the six films. -----signature----- Destinations are often a suprise to the destined
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Shadeleader Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 12:14pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Some thoughts from a previous canon thread. And yes, before it's intimated, I'm quoting myself because I do in fact, love to hear myself speak. http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b10003/13016677/p5 "That being said, many people, both on and off this thread, have questioned the need for canon. As an educator, I can tell you that this question is frequently raised in terms of what children study in schools, as well as more unweidly critical issues. Some people will tell you that canon is an issue of quality, that only the best of the best are worthy of study. Others who debate canon point to it as the propagation of the literary values of a patriarchal society and demand that more be included in 'the canon', until it becomes so diverse that practically everything is canon. I believe that we all recognize how similar this is to the discourse between EU fans and purists on these boards without my needing to resort to a detailed analysis. Simply put, any debate on this issue is somewhat wrong-headed, and those who participate in it seem oblivious to what the notion of 'canon' truly represents. Canon is not a measure of validity or quality, and by its very nature, it should not include absolutely everything. What we call canon is simply a commonly accepted listing of texts (texts being film, literature, or any other media, really) that serves as a basis for discourse among people of diverse backgrounds. Students around the world read a similar listing of books and plays, short stories and poems in their high school educations, and there is a reason for this beyond 'shakespeare is great' or whatever. If something in the EU is not canon, that is not an insult to the EU, nor is it an invalidation. Canon by its very nature is incomplete because it is a list of texts that all parties involved in a discussion are assumed to be familiar with. In a thread based on Enemy Lines, Enemy Lines is the canon text. In a discussion on the film version of Episode II, the film version of episode II is the canon text. The inclusion of other sources in the discussion may be fruitful or it may obfuscate the issue, but whomever cites those sources is responsible for making sure that the other participants are familiar with the concepts discussed from outside the canon texts and for defending their contributions. It makes sense that the EU is NOT part of the overall SW canon: we can't assume that everyone who watches the films has read the 'entire' EU, although we must assume that they are familiar with the five existing film texts. Since these boards discuss the EU, the EU is canon on these boards, and the EU is not necessarily canon on the film boards." Enjoy.
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/7/04 1:38pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	MCP... "What does this have to do with EU overriding canon? Did anyone in AOTC say either , "There goes Dooku, flying away in his solar sailer"? or "There goes Dooku, flying away in his gree energy sailer"?" Or to use another example, did anyone in AOTC say "There goes Boba Fett, who was NEVER Jaster Mereel." No. Boba Fett's EU origins were unaffected in their entirety by the two prequel movies thus far. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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