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Author	Topic: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
cal_silverstar Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/21/04 4:32pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Regarding Target's dissing of the Salvation Army: Wal- Mart still allows the Salvation Army in front of its stores and is matching contributions lost. Target: D'oh! -----signature----- I'm gonna miss Bush...isms. I write reviews and editorials for http://www.rrbgames.com
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 12/21/04 4:39pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Not necessarily agreeing with all of it, but some of you may want to check out Charles Krauthammer in today's Washington Post (registration required): "Holiday celebrations where Christmas music is being sung make people feel different, and because it is such a majority, it makes the minority feel uncomfortable." -- Mark Brownstein, parent, Maplewood, N.J., supporting the school board's ban on religious music in holiday concerts "You want my advice? Go back to Bulgaria." -- Humphrey Bogart, "Casablanca" It is Christmastime, and what would Christmas be without the usual platoon of annoying pettifoggers rising annually to strip Christmas of any Christian content? With some success: School districts in New Jersey and Florida ban Christmas carols. The mayor of Somerville, Mass., apologizes for "mistakenly" referring to the town's "holiday party" as a "Christmas party." The Broward and Fashion malls in South Florida put up a Hanukah menorah but no nativity scene. The manager of one of the malls explains: Hanukah commemorates a battle and not a religious event, though he hastens to add, "I really don't know a lot about it." He does not. Hanukah commemorates a miracle, and there is no event more "religious" than a miracle. The attempts to de-Christianize Christmas are as absurd as they are relentless. The United States today is the most tolerant and diverse society in history. It celebrates all faiths with an open heart and open-mindedness that, compared to even the most advanced countries in Europe, are unique. Follow the link to read the rest of it. -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 12/21/04 5:48pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Krauthhammer conveniently leaves out the fact that the Broward Mall display did include a Christmas tree. http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/10456909.htm For the record, Pat Buchanen is one of my least favorite people. That said...I could care less if I were to enter a store and there was a 'Merry Christmas' sign but no 'Happy Hannukah' sign. To me its the store owners celebrating their holiday. Just because one celebrates a holiday doesn't mean that person is 'against' all other holidays that happen to be around the same time yet aren't part of their religion. In other words, one can be 'pro' something while not having to be 'against' its perceived 'alternatives'. Something 'positive' doesn't have to have a 'negative'...if any of that makes sense. Anyway, I don't feel excluded because I'm not being excluded. I'm sure that if I told one of my many Christian friends that I wanted to see what a Christmas celebrations was about, they'd happily invite me and my family. We went to a Christmas evening dinner a few years ago at a friends house and man, you people can cook up some serious food!And likewise, I've had Christian friends over during Jewish holidays, and no I don't make them eat Gefilte fish...but my wife does make an excellent beef briscuit.
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J-Rod Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/21/04 5:51pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	but my wife does make an excellent beef briscuit. Ooooooo...I love that stuff!!!!! -----signature----- God Bless Barack Obama Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" Gamertag: zZ J ROD Zz
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Moriarte Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 12/21/04 6:43pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Is that the same as a Texas Briscuit? Ciou-See the Sig -----signature----- This shaking keeps me steady. I should know. What falls away is always. And is near. I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke~
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DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 12/21/04 6:46pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/21/04 6:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DeathStar1977
	Probably not...I'm thinking Texas briscuit is more BBQ...I have had authentic Memphis BBQ beef briscuit when I visited Graceland. Yes, I've been to Graceland. I used to have a pair of Elvis shades that I bought there.
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J-Rod Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/21/04 6:53pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	I used to have a pair of Elvis shades that I bought there. Uh oh...DS77 is gonna try to have a cool moment... That is about as likely as me winning a spelling bee -----signature----- God Bless Barack Obama Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" Gamertag: zZ J ROD Zz
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/21/04 11:20pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	I have a complex reaction to the article you posted, OWM. I agree that Christianophobia exists, although I wouldn't go so far as to call Macy's removal of the words "Merry Christmas" from its stores a "hate crime." Driving to someone's house, abducting them at shotgun-point, driving them into the woods, and lynching them is a hate crime. Changing holiday decorations is not. You'll get no argument from me that Christianity is increasingly looked down upon in many sectors of society, but there's a distinction between "looked down upon" and "menaced." I spent a fair amount of today researching the Darfur crisis, partly to look for something I could do to help, and partly to look for something that the Peace Jam group at the school I sub at can do to help. The people in Darfur are being manaced. The most recent numbers I've seen say that 130,000 are dead. When we elevate the removal of "Merry Christmas" from the decorations of a department store to the level of a humanitarian crisis, we are showing the deepest disrespect for those who are actually struggling to survive such crises. However, taking the position that Christians are being looked down upon, what is the proper response? I would suggest that a deeper commitment to Christianity's ideals and mission is the only one possible for Christians. Christianity was illegal for the first 300 years of its existence--really illegal, as in they'd have Christians torn to death by wild animals as an opening act for the gladiators--and yet it endured and drew converts because of the deep faith of its adherants, and what might now be called a campaign of peaceful resistance. Not all ancient Christians were holy people, just as not all modern ones are, but there were enough of them who were the genuine article that others saw something in them, and followed--including, eventually, the Emperor Constantine. (We could go on at length about how sincere his conversion was, but the fact remains that of all the non-Imperial religions he could have chosen from, he picked Christianity. Well, maybe it picked him, if you go with the "In hoc signo" miracle.) So first of all, I suggest that it's a Christian's duty not to care a bit what the rest of society thinks of him. Jesus certainly didn't; he told his followers to go into a town and preach his message, and if they were rebuffed, they should simply leave the town and shake the dust from their feet. Since Jesus himself was publicly mocked as "king of the Jews" by having a crown of thorns put on his head and a reed put into his hand as a "scepter," I think we can handle having "Merry Christmas" removed from the Macy's store. If we can't, we can always take comfort in Jesus' words, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." If it upsets us that elementary school children are forbidden to sing "We wish you a merry Christmas" in school, we're called to bring as much of Christ as we are able to those children, by behaving like him, and making a difference in their lives. Or, to put it another way: "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." I guess I must be the Grinch, but I don't lament the severance of the tie between Christianity and the height of the retail season that happens to coincide with Christmas. What does Jesus' birth have to do with flashing colored lights, mechanical waving Santas, and fake sentimental ads that imply that you must not love your family very much if you don't buy object X for them? It's annoying enough to have a maniacally uptempo instrumental version of "Jingle Bell Rock" piped into my subconscious when I brave the mall and its hot, crowded, impatient shoppers--hearing the same treatment given to "O Holy Night" would border on the obscene. (Every year I do more of my Christmas shopping online.) This year I scoured iTunes to find cool arrangements of Christmas songs to make a Christmas CD for my relatives. I didn't include a single secular song, even though not all my relatives are religious. I just didn't want "Jingle Bells" and "Winter Wonderland" on there. When I thought about it, I decided that I associate those songs with endlessly-looped crowded-mall music, and, frankly, I am not eager to hear them again any time soon, perhaps not ever. (Especially not "Jingle Bells." Why does every child who gets his hands on a kazoo or a plinky toy piano feel the need to play "Jingle Bells" over and over . . . even when it's July?) I checked into the Salvation Army thing, since I had some questions about it. I keep fairly close track of gay rights issues, having a sister who is gay, and neither the Salvation Army nor Target's connection to it ever showed up on radar. Apparently there has been a certain amount of protest against the SA because it doesn't provide domestic partner benefits to employees, but it doesn't do that for gay or straight employees. It also says homosexuality is wrong, but so does every conservative church denomination in the country. In terms of gay civil rights violations, the Salvation Army is not a high-priority target--no pun intended. Target says it banned the SA because too many other groups wanted to solicit in front of their stores too. The Salvation Army also says it was banned because of the no-solicitation policy. Gay rights groups have not really mentioned the issue at all--the only exception was a Michigan-based group that has apparently been mad at the SA for a while, and they only comment gleefully that it was dumped by Target. They make no connection between the SA's domestic partner benefits (or lack thereof) and Target's decision. Would these groups be crowing if they'd really tried to take down the SA, and got Target to comply? Damn straight--no pun intended there, either. Getting a mainstream retailer like Target to kick out a Christmastime staple like the SA over domestic partner benefits would be a huge, huge thing. And yet, not a blip. None of the wire-service news sites seem to have picked up the "story" that gay rights groups have succeeded in getting the SA banned from Target, either. The only sites I could find that make that connection are anti-homosexual sites like Concerned Women for America and traditionalvalues.org, etc. If you care, here's Target's position on the matter. Here's the the Salvation Army's side of the story Here's snopes.com's write up, which doesn't even mention gay rights or partner benefits. The closest thing to an actual SA/gay rights issue I could find was at Wikipedia, which mentions that the city of New York has been having strained negotiations with the SA because "New York insists that organizations which do business with them provide medical help to the partners of gay people. Since the Army's stance on homosexuality would seem not to permit this, they risked being forced to cease their social work in the city if no compromise can be reached." So what we have is a city having issues with the SA based on what is apparently a city statute of some kind. NYC is not a gay rights group, and it is not Target. The rest is "spin city." I used to have some respect for Concerned Women of America as a serious, if partisan, reporter of the news, but that has evaporated when I've looked into their reports. So many stories are misleading, groundless, or exaggerated, it might almost make one wonder whether they have any real news that supports their cause at all. Unfortunately, there is real news--such as the genocide in Darfur, which is a result of decades of ethnic conflict between Arab Muslims in the north and primarily Christian blacks in the south. The remaining Christian population really is being wiped out, in part, because they are Christian. To be fair, CWFA does mention the conflict, but the outrage isn't there--perhaps because they're only concerned for America. I don't know. One of their Sudan articles also contains what may be the least helpful action alert on the Internet: "Take action: Please pray that the government will allow the aid to reach the victims and that this genocide will end." We have a genocide going on, and that's it? Check out Savedarfur.org, Amnesty International, Africa Action, or Darfurgenocide.org if you'd like to find out how to actually do something. I seem to recall Jesus saying, "Feed my sheep," not "Think nice thoughts about them over the Internet." Forgive me for being a crank, especially at Christmas, but to me, this stuff matters. At any rate, my recommendations to Pat Robertson are: 1) Be very, very glad that the commercial orgy that used to share the name "Christmas season" with an actual religious holiday is backing away from coopted religious imagery. Christianity's losing the "support" of the retail world is like a drowning man losing an anchor chained around his leg. 2) We are not being persecuted. Ancient Roman Christians were persecuted. Darfurian Christians are being persecuted. Christians in places like China and Iran have been persecuted. We are merely annoyed. There's a difference. 3) The best way to improve Christianity's "image problem" is to ignore it and get back to serving those who need us. 4) Please get your news from anywhere other than the Concerned Women for America website. -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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Lord_Darth_Vader Title: Retired CR Sacrament o CA Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 12/22/04 2:13am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/22/04 2:20am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Darth_Vader
	Ya know, I have looked at this thread several ways, and I am still not sure how or what to post what's on my mind. Ophelia, sorry, I only read the cliff notes version of your post. Too much to read at 2AM for me. But from what I read, good points. To me Christmas has always meant a fat man in a red suit named Santa Claus and a reindeer named Rudolph. Snow men, dozens and dozens of colored lights on houses and trees. If we were brave enough to sit on the bearded fat man's lap, and tell him what we wanted, and were good (fat chance that's gonna happen) we would get what we asked for. It's also a time to share and giving. And getting lot's of presents. My mom always made sure we knew Christmas was a time of giving and sharing. The one thing that was never stressed upon me and my family was religion. I am from the Church of Christ and we celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on Sundays in the form of communion. I understand Target's position on the Salvation Army, but still think they are pretty anal retentive about it. I don't mind the solicitors in front of places such as Walmart and Target. I even look forward to harrassing the young Republicans trying to register new people. [poke, poke]J-Rod[/poke, poke] If it meant having the Salvation Army back, I wouldn't mind putting up with the other groups in front of Target. -----signature----- Thank God I'm an Athiest! Rogue Force Productions http://rfproduction.com
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cal_silverstar Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/22/04 9:10am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Ophelia: and a big thumbs up! Now that's what I call perspective. Although the PC attack on Christmas irks me, "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" have been around for as long as I can remember, so I don't think that's a big deal. -----signature----- I'm gonna miss Bush...isms. I write reviews and editorials for http://www.rrbgames.com
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CitizenKane Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 12/22/04 9:41am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	I guess I must be the Grinch, but I don't lament the severance of the tie between Christianity and the height of the retail season that happens to coincide with Christmas. What does Jesus' birth have to do with flashing colored lights, mechanical waving Santas, and fake sentimental ads that imply that you must not love your family very much if you don't buy object X for them? Wait. I think you're being a little fallacious. You are questioning the relationship between the commmercialization of Christmas and the true meaning thereof. What Christians lament is that we see an ongoing effort to eliminate anything of Judeo-Christian value in our society. You see, Jesus was here long before the lights and presents were. Commercialization ahppened long after the true meaning of Christmas. Therefore, what you are referring to is not real Christmas, in the sense that Christmas has always been a time for lights and trees and gifts and the whole Jesus thing was mad eup later. Nope. -----signature----- CitizenKane
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Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/22/04 9:52am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Christmas is basically "Happy Birthday Jesus" to me, although I realize this isn't the time of year when he was born. But if this is the time of year when we celebrate it, that's good enough for me. Oh, and presents are a plus too. -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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sellars1996 Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/22/04 10:25am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	I disagree/agree with OWM on this and agree with much of ophelia's post. Christmas is a predominately secular holiday now despite its religious significance to Christians. In my neighborhood of around 200 homes that are decorated for Christmas, my house is one of three houses that have yard decorations with a religious theme. Commercialism and exhortations to spend have hijacked this holy event and intertwined it with the Almighty Dollar. Its mutation into a secular holiday is not all bad and I don't mind non-Christians celebrating the holiday because anything that brings people together and fosters a sense of compassion, peace, and love is good. But I find myself, particularly as I age, seeking to find greater meaning in the holiday season beyond Santa and all the frenzy. Every year at this time we have legal battles over nativity scenes on public property. I frequently hear two arguments in support of such symbols: 1) symbols of Christ at this time of year are a tradition like any other decoration, and thus should not be offensive to anyone; and 2) that Christians are a majority of the country, with the implication that the offended can always leave. Frankly, if Jesus and symbols of his birth have no more meaning than Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer or Frosty the Snowman, this country and its people are in trouble. But more importantly, I believe that the Constitution protects all minorities from the tyranny of the majority insofar as rights are concerned (and no, this does not refer to the presidential election results). Even if Christians are a majority now, the shoe may be on the other foot some day. I would not appreciate my daughters being forced to face Mecca in school and pray Muslim prayers if Christians were a minority anymore than Jewish parents in the 1950's and 1960's liked their kids being forced by the Christian majority to say prayers to Jesus in school, or being told to leave the country if I did not like it. The separation between church and state is not a one way street and is not, in my mind, a hindrance to religion or an organized effort to stamp out religion for secularism. The Constitution protects religion because the government cannot tell me how or whether to worship, but it does prohibit the government from using taxpayer funds to support religion or forcing religion on someone. That's a more than acceptable trade off to me; I don't need to place a menorah or nativity on the steps of the county courthouse because I can put them in my own front yard. -----signature----- Every married father's wish ... to live as well as his wife and children. The kindest words ever said about a lawyer: well, at least he didn't run for Congress.
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/22/04 12:00pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	CK: You've conflated two different kinds of apathy on my part. On the one hand there is personal apathy over Christmas decorations--I don't particularly care if Macy's puts up a sign that says "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" or "Glorious Saturnalia." The store is not religiously affiliated, and it's unnecessary to pretend it is. Other people have different opinions; that's just mine. The other kind of apathy I was referring to is religious apathy, which is my response to Christianophobia. I don't care that Hollywood doesn't like me. In fact, I don't think that it's a Christian's place to care about something like that. I'm trying not to make a theological debate out of it; let it suffice to say that I don't think the fact that secular Western society is snotty towards us should be high on our concerns list. We aren't being murdered in the gladiators' ring for the pleasure of screaming, drunken crowds, and we aren't supposed to be thinking about ourselves and others' opinions of us, anyway. I'd rather see the effort and the outrage directed elsewhere, toward situations where people are far worse off than we are. If it makes a difference, that kind of humanitarian service tends to improve Christianity's PR; not that this is the reason we should be engaged in it. -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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Cheveyo Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 12/22/04 1:58pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	CitizenKane: Chev, are you so trapped in the progressive bubble that you can't even admit the lunacies of your own side at least occasionally? Or is it simply that you haven't been watching the news and hearing all these stories? It's a shame, CK, that you seem so eager to attack that you know little of your victim. Allow me to show you some quotes of mine made in other threads: Religious expression in schools by students individually or in small groups independent of school functions or curriculum is not an issue (at least it shouldn't be--those schools that may have taken that step are wrong). (Responding to: My sig is an intent to argue against those that seem to be intent on removing all Christian symbols or opinions from the public. The removal of Christmas Nativity scenes in Florida, yet the allowance of Jewish and Muslim symbols, is an example of this.) If this is true, then the Florida official in charge missed the point. But whatever you choice to use as a defense of your sig, the fact remains that it is a statement akin to "poor me", which was what we were discussing. And that is just two recent quotes. Please don't label me if you do not fully comprehend my position. That's a bit audacious of you to question the authenticity of the stories just of pure desperation that, somehow, someway, the numbers of Nov. 2nd really did fool us all and the country is indeed a progressive people. That's hardly audacious, CK. Unlike some, many of usask questions of the things handed to us. most of us understand that there is much more to any story, and that with just a couple misplaced facts a story can take on a whole new meaning. Also, it should be noted that Buchanan is not a news journalist. This article was an editorial article, not a fact-based report. In such editorials, it is important to ask where the actual facts are. -----signature----- I am a Founding Father. Want to know more? Just ask.
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