Author Topic: A Mary Sue warning
KadeBendu  122 posts
Registered: Feb '01
6431_Rebel Alliance Seal
Date Posted: 6/6/08 8:29am Subject: A Mary Sue warning - Date Edited: 6/6/08 8:29am (1 edits total) Edited By: KadeBendu
I found a few Mary Sue threads but they were all locked, so my apologies if this is in the wrong place.

Reviewing and editing a story of mine, I discovered this about some OCs:

- two engineers were "top flight graduates of a prestigious Coruscant technical school"
- a young Jedi knight was "identified at an early age as an extraordinary user of the Force"
- a Star Destroyer captain "graduated with the top of his class from the Imperial Navy"

Oops. Seems like every character is automatically at the top of his/her game. Time to revise. happy

Also, another question that I've never seen on a Mary Sue exam, but ought to be there:

- If you told someone your OC's name, how many tries would it take for them to spell it correctly?

 

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Alexis_Wingstar  3235 posts
Registered: Sep '06
42248_Leia Organa Solo
Date Posted: 6/6/08 9:56am Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Well, that last assumes the person trying to spell it has a good grasp of spelling. tongue

 

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DarthIshtar  47248 posts
Title: Former CR
Registered: Mar '01
44374_Fan Films - Pink Five
Date Posted: 6/6/08 10:19am Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Or was paying attention.

 

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RebelGrrl  2143 posts
Registered: Jan '06
14691_Dani
Date Posted: 6/6/08 11:39am Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Were Tolkien's characters Mary Sues by that rule, then? grin

There are many fantasy authors that try to proclaim that their work is fantasy by using the most fantastical spellings possible. Professionals, at that. Impossible names may not be so much mary-sue as imitating a poor practice seen from others.

 

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Pallas-Athena  4271 posts
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered: Nov '00
24106_Callista
Date Posted: 6/6/08 12:02pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Ah, the good ole Sue. Did anyone ever make a new litmus test or is it still that old Star Fox one? The one wasn't very good. thinking

 

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JadeSolo  13731 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Sep '02
Date Posted: 6/6/08 1:36pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
I think it was Fernwithy who wrote the article in the TFN Archive about naming OCs - something about how "Dyjeni'pher" (Jennifer) doesn't fool people at all. laugh

One way to un-Mary your OCs is to keep them at the top of their game, so to speak, but to give them serious faults in other aspects of their lives. Maybe professionally, they're all badasses, but in their personal lives, they're terrible spouses/parents/siblings/friends. Or they're ranked #1, and they're smart, but they got there by cheating on a critical exam. You know, dramatic stuff like that. tongue

I think a new litmus test is in order. I'd add questions like, "Does your OC just absolutely refuse to die, no matter what kind of hell and torture you put him through, even though no other character in the history of SW lore could have survived this long?"

 

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Gratulor  184 posts
Registered: May '08
48937_Rohlan (71909)
Date Posted: 6/6/08 3:03pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
People are flawed to the teeth, and most have more flaws than their abilities, minor things that add up. It can be as little as phobias and short temper to very noticable weaknesses and inabilities such as freaking out when they meet Givin.

Star Wars-y names are easy to make, as they all seem to draw their meaning from the real world - even from obscure languages and languages largely unknown to the western population, such as Arabic, Mandarin and some African ones. Hutt sounding names can be found in Icelandic & Old Norse (you can PM me for Hutt names), Mandalorian sounding names can be found in Latin, Corellian names are largely English (Lea = Leia) names and even Danish names (Hans).

Simplistic names are better than complex, if they're too complex then have a good nickname (Alek Squinquergasimus becomes Squint). Of course, Twi'lek and Chiss have both native names and galactic names, their native names being much more complex. Research the subject also, and find a fitting name for a specific culture. A Twi'lek raised by humans from Corellia that live on Tatooine wouldn't essentially be named "Tolaadon'eesico", may as well be named "Andra".

Another good thing to avoid is to make too many hybrids. I've seen a lot of Zabrak/Human male who gets together with Kiffar/Human female and they have a child. I wonder how the cultures get together that way.

 

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Jedi_Perigrine  993 posts
Registered: Apr '08
46133_Talon Squad
Date Posted: 6/6/08 3:15pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
There's always the biological component too. How...*exactly* would a Rodian and a Hutt mate? (why did I have to use those two for examples!? <tries to shake the images out of his mind>) Or a Twi'lek and a human? Just because they appear human doesn't mean they have all the same parts! I'm pondering the latter pairing myself, wondering just how it's going to work. I'm definitely not planning on offspring, except maybe in a humor piece. grin

As for naming, I cheated and used the SW Name generator on myself. And yet another character who hasn't made it to the TF.N is named after Indian bread (Naan).

I would definitely be interested in finding more Mary Sue guidelines. I'm sure that despite all the flaws I try to put into my character, I could be coming close on bending the guidelines a little wink

 

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Gratulor  184 posts
Registered: May '08
48937_Rohlan (71909)
Date Posted: 6/6/08 6:03pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
What we know is that most near-humans and humans can cross-breed, but humanoids aren't always compatible with humans. Twi'leks being classified as the latter, they aren't compatible. I'm not sure Zabraks can either.

Offspring of a Barabel and a Hutt would be what? Butt if Barabel female Hutt male, Harahel if male Hutt. You put their DNA in a blender and voila! Simple as that. grin

Boring evenings produce dull comments. Sorry tongue

 

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KadeBendu  122 posts
Registered: Feb '01
6431_Rebel Alliance Seal
Date Posted: 6/8/08 9:46am Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
I think names are the most difficult of all for me to come up with. As my "Mary Sue" question suggests, I'm into more common-sounding names, which I think lines up generally with (major) canon characters.

Another potential Star Wars Mary Sue question. Or maybe it's just a generic "cliche" question:

- How many times does your character say "I have a bad feeling about this"? happy

 

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Rigil_Kent  248 posts
Registered: Jan '04
41559_Vader
Date Posted: 6/8/08 10:18am Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
KadeBendu posted:
Reviewing and editing a story of mine, I discovered this about some OCs:

- two engineers were "top flight graduates of a prestigious Coruscant technical school"
- a young Jedi knight was "identified at an early age as an extraordinary user of the Force"
- a Star Destroyer captain "graduated with the top of his class from the Imperial Navy"

Oops. Seems like every character is automatically at the top of his/her game. Time to revise.

Just because the characters in question are highly skilled doesn't necessarily mean they're Mary Sue/Gary Stus, though. The same could be said for those characters who are absolute failures in all walks of life and then, when the situation is dramatically appropriate, turn into walking/flying engines of destruction.

To me, there is a delicate balance between an OC who is skilled and competent in his or her field of expertise and a MS/GS. I use the following mental thought process in regards to said characters:

  1. Is the background of the character internally consistent and logical? For example, if the star destroyer captain mentioned in your example is being assigned a special mission by the Emperor, he better have extraordinary marks and skills.

  2. Is the character's personality consistent and logical for the role (s)he is to play in the story? Having the above-mentioned destroyer captain randomly throw temper tantrums because (s)he doesn't get her/his way probably only serves to make other characters dislike her/him. One can also have fun with this: did the character graduate top of the class because of family connections and not talent? Do other characters loath this character because of the personality issues? Etc.

  3. If this character is going to be functioning alongside Canon characters, does (s)he outshine them? If so, is there a believable explanation for why apart from 'this character is the most awesomest character evah!'? For example, using that star destroyer captain again, it's entirely conceivable that his tactical skills are greater than those of someone like Luke Skywalker based entirely upon the sorts of training the two have had. If, however, the captain is suddenly Force sensitive and wields a lightsaber better than Luke does, one needs to readdress the character to trim it of the MS/GS. In the other fandom I've written for (ST: Enterprise), I've introduced a number of OCs who were experts in their fields ... and their fields only.

  4. If the character is going to be a foil for Canon characters, does (s)he force said Canon characters to stretch themselves beyond their usual capabilities in order to defeat them? That's the best sort of character, IMO.

  5. Steer away (IMO) from OC romances with a Canon character as they almost always look like MS/GS...


 

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Alexis_Wingstar  3235 posts
Registered: Sep '06
42248_Leia Organa Solo
Date Posted: 6/8/08 11:15am Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
KadeBendu posted:
I think names are the most difficult of all for me to come up with. As my "Mary Sue" question suggests, I'm into more common-sounding names, which I think lines up generally with (major) canon characters.

Another potential Star Wars Mary Sue question. Or maybe it's just a generic "cliche" question:

- How many times does your character say "I have a bad feeling about this"? happy


I don't think asking that question, or the frequency of asking it, would necessarily make a character a MS/GS. In fact, it could actually stem from that character being uncommonly anxious or phobic which would be a characteristic that would make them less than perfect.

 

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KadeBendu  122 posts
Registered: Feb '01
6431_Rebel Alliance Seal
Date Posted: 6/8/08 4:53pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning - Date Edited: 6/8/08 9:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KadeBendu
Rigil_Kent posted:
Just because the characters in question are highly skilled doesn't necessarily mean they're Mary Sue/Gary Stus, though. The same could be said for those characters who are absolute failures in all walks of life and then, when the situation is dramatically appropriate, turn into walking/flying engines of destruction.

To me, there is a delicate balance between an OC who is skilled and competent in his or her field of expertise and a MS/GS. I use the following mental thought process in regards to said characters:

  1. Is the background of the character internally consistent and logical? For example, if the star destroyer captain mentioned in your example is being assigned a special mission by the Emperor, he better have extraordinary marks and skills.

  2. Is the character's personality consistent and logical for the role (s)he is to play in the story? Having the above-mentioned destroyer captain randomly throw temper tantrums because (s)he doesn't get her/his way probably only serves to make other characters dislike her/him. One can also have fun with this: did the character graduate top of the class because of family connections and not talent? Do other characters loath this character because of the personality issues? Etc.

  3. If this character is going to be functioning alongside Canon characters, does (s)he outshine them? If so, is there a believable explanation for why apart from 'this character is the most awesomest character evah!'? For example, using that star destroyer captain again, it's entirely conceivable that his tactical skills are greater than those of someone like Luke Skywalker based entirely upon the sorts of training the two have had. If, however, the captain is suddenly Force sensitive and wields a lightsaber better than Luke does, one needs to readdress the character to trim it of the MS/GS. In the other fandom I've written for (ST: Enterprise), I've introduced a number of OCs who were experts in their fields ... and their fields only.

  4. If the character is going to be a foil for Canon characters, does (s)he force said Canon characters to stretch themselves beyond their usual capabilities in order to defeat them? That's the best sort of character, IMO.

  5. Steer away (IMO) from OC romances with a Canon character as they almost always look like MS/GS...





You make some good points, Rigil. The heroes and chief villains in the Star Wars universe are extraordinary people. That's why they're heroes. Han was one of the best smugglers, Leia was a princess and a very young senator, Vader was perhaps the most powerful Jedi ever. Even minor characters like Ackbar and Lando were portrayed as being exceptional in their respective realms.

I suppose I just started to feel like these (my) characters were becoming rote, and I though I changed some, I didn't change them all. Though Luke eventually became an exceptional Jedi, despite his pedigree he was an accomplishment-less farmboy at the start of the films. It's nice to see how ordinary people to extraordinary things via the story, rather than started them off at the top. This is perhaps why the new trilogy was even made, no? To show how Vader got to where he was?

That said, of course you can't do it with everyone. The trick is figuring out which characters should be masters of their domains, and how to keep them--for lack of a better word--human.

Alexis_Wingstar posted:

I don't think asking that question, or the frequency of asking it, would necessarily make a character a MS/GS. In fact, it could actually stem from that character being uncommonly anxious or phobic which would be a characteristic that would make them less than perfect.


I don't necessarily disagree, Alexis. I guess I was just exposing my opinion that the "bad feeling" phrase has IMHO been mis/overused, as are many phrases from the movies. Another example: having a master teach his apprentice that a Jedi must have "the deepest commitment; the most serious mind."

Phrase reuse is an immediate way to tie a scene, emotionally speaking, to a moment in the films with which all readers can identify. The hope of the author is usually to establish some legitimacy for the character/story and at the same time evoke some emotion tied to that dialogue. The risk is the naked invitation to the reader to compare the two, which can be distracting.

As an example, Hitchcock liked to give himself tiny cameos in his own movies, so much so that fans started to watch for him. He quickly learned this broke that suspension of disbelief a storyteller desperately needs when telling a story, so he changed his style a little. By North By Northwest, he inserted himself into the very beginning during the credits (he gets shut out trying to board a city bus), so that he wouldn't be a distraction to the audience later.

I think the same kind of care needs to be exercised with including movie quotes in our writings.

 

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SilSolo  8866 posts
Registered: Mar '04
24177_Fan Art - Chiss Jedi
Date Posted: 6/12/08 1:43pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Character names: lol I've an unpronouncable name myself IRL, but I'm wondering, how would you pronounce each of the following names?

Allanya
Trajan
Hadrian
Ayemi
Kieffe
Kentorr

and can you tell me which ones are respelled English names?

Anyway, I think Rigil_Kent said it. But I'm not as big of a fan of putting new ones at the tops of their domains as much as portraying ordinary people in interesting but still unnoticed lives, like this plot bunny for example:

Coren was just an ordinary man leading an ordinary life at the University of Corellia. He had no special powers or distinctions whatsoever and although he was of above average intelligence, he was no genius. One night, as he's about to finish up his thesis on Sith history, he's kidnapped by a rogue Jedi who thinks that he knows the Sith arts, which he doesn't but pretends to know it in attempt to please his captor. Things go from tense to awful and when he's eventually freed, Coren goes back to being just a regular student living on a meager scholarship that doesn't do much more than buy him everything that he needs.

As for quoting movies, I think it might be better practice to tie the quotes to a fitting scene but not necessarily any character. Like have the 'I have a bad feeling about this' thing show up in a fitting scene, but not necessarily have one of the OC's say it.

 

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Luton_Plunder  775 posts
Registered: Jun '06
41202_Scout Trooper
Date Posted: 6/13/08 8:02pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Just to offer a slightly different perspective for a moment:

I sometimes think that people get a little bit carried away with their Mary Sue stamp. I mean, sure - sometimes you read a story in which a character defeats Darth Vader with a pocket knife and then leaves Leia at the altar for Padme. But I think that these stories, while prolific, can't really be held to a standard that recognises a complex literary concept like 'Mary Sue'. Usually they're flat out trying to recognise standards of grammar and spelling. There's fanfics and fanfics, is what I'm saying.

Generally, if someone is writing a story and is savvy enough to have created a character, developed a well-realised story for them, and written in such a way that makes grammatical sense, I'm willing to go where the story leads. Individual facts, such as characters graduating at the top of their class, being exceptional users of the Force, or whatever else the litmus tests yield are very rarely indicators of a cut-and-dry Mary Sue. It's not the absence of specific flaws, or the possession of a quantity of talents, that makes a Mary Sue. It's the story they exist in.

If that story has a synopsis that goes "I get transported to the Star Wars universe and kill Darf Vader", you know what to expect from it. It's self-insertion, it's a Mary Sue character, the story really wasn't written for any other purpose than to entertain the writer for a few minutes. I'm more than willing to forgive the presence of a Mary Sue in that story because it doesn't offend anyone - most likely due to the fact that nobody will read it.

If the story purports to have a decent plot and character development, then Mary Suism is actually very difficult to achieve. Take SilSolo's example. To create a Mary Sue out the character just there, an author would have to try very, very hard. It would not be things like the character's name, their marks, abilities or flaws that made Coren a Mary Sue, either. These things are incidental. It would be the content of the story, and how it progressed. It it is in a way that is entirely believable, then great. If it's in a way that's even slightly believable, then great. Even if it's entirely unbelievable, there's every chance that the story is still entertaining. About the only way that the character could turn into a Mary Sue was if all coherent storyline was abandoned and the entire story reduced to nothing but adulation after adulation for how perfect the character was.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think people focus too much on making sure their character isn't a Mary Sue when what they probably should be concentrating on is how to make their story believable, or entertaining, or funny, or more coherent. A character only makes sense in the context of a story. Indiana Jones makes sense because he's in an Indiana Jones movie. Put him in Schindler's List and I've got no problems calling him a Mary Sue.

Suit your character to your story and you will have zero issues with Mary Suism. They can be as incredible as you like, as long as the story supports it. Criticising and analysing a character independent of the story is like buying an awesome set of tires for a car you don't have.

 

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NYCitygurl  29501 posts
Title: Manager of SFFBC, C&G, NSWFF, and Icons
Registered: Jul '02
51850_VD181: Bear
Date Posted: 6/13/08 8:23pm Subject: RE: A Mary Sue warning
Trajan
Hadrian

These guys were both Roman emperors. Tray-jan and Hade-ree-an.

I don't think using weird names or having OC/canon romances necessarily make MS/GS. When I create an OC, I pick their first letter or a meaning and go through babynames.com until I find something I like. I'm into fantasy so I'm more drawn to fantasy-esque names. It's different for everyone.

As for my second point, I've told people before that if they do something, there should be a reason for it, some way it helps the plot line (killing a character) or makes sense based off of previous canon (AUs). Someone who wins the hearts of Luke and Han, is best friends with Leia, a hero of the rebellion, etc., strikes me as an OC. But pairing Luke up with an OC doesn't necessarily make her a MS. It might if he's got a thing going with Mara already, but a Rebellion-era romance between Luke and an OC . . . well, the hero has to fall in love with somebody, and his canon love isn't in the picture at that point.

Or even something more minor, like pairing an OC up with, say, Kyp Durron, who doesn't have any last canon romances that we hear about. If you want him to be with someone other than Jaina, making someone up makes sense since there aren't any non-Jaina canon options that are more realistic, IMO, than an OC.

 

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