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Author	Topic: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
Obi_Frans Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/10/04 4:47pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	Being a good son isn't quite the same thing as destroying the Death Star or defeating an Evil Emperor. Moreover, being a good son is a common and daily event. Besides, he failed and then took out his anger on Tusken Raiders... not just the men, but the women and children too. He slaughter them like animals. Since when is it heroic to fail? Where did i say that? He was being a perfect son in allowing his mother not to live in pain anymore - how is that NOT heroic? He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe Thats the whole point behind Anakin - he's a hero who cannot control himself, that scene perfectly outlines that. The Jedi Code was designed to prevent Padawans from slaughting, as the Force should only be use for defense and knowledge. Never attack. That sounds like a pretty good redline to me. And where does the Jedi Code say what to do when you can see your mother suffering in pain everynight? That's exactly the case with Anakin/the Jedi in these prequels, aside ffrom Gui-Gon, noone understands Anakin - and Anakin doesn't understand the Jedi. Only through Luke does this happen. No. Luke was heroic because he did not give into his hate and anger, like Anakin did to the Tusken Raiders. Luke is heroic because he followed the Jedi Code, the redline that outlines whats heroic and whats not. Anakin did not give into hate and anger, he was perfectly under control and his obly objective was to get his mother out of the camp - he goes in these hurting noone.... heroic ....then she allows herself to die, Anakin completely misunderstands this (he wont understand till Jedi) and lashes out at the camp - unheroic See? -----signature----- "He only wanted to save them. Padme, from death. Obi-Wan, from ignorance But they failed to recognize his power. Instead, Padme was dead & Obi-Wan was running for his life As stripped of everything as Vader was. Without friends, family, purpose" - Vader
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Sith_Sensei__Prime Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 12/10/04 5:19pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media? - Date Edited: 12/10/04 5:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sith_Sensei__Prime
	Where did i say that? Did I say you did say that? But when is it heroic to fail? He was being a perfect son in allowing his mother not to live in pain anymore - how is that NOT heroic? Common and daily events are generally not considered heroic. I've walked in many hospitals where sons don't want their mothers to live in pain. It's more a sympathetic act than heroic. He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe Thats the whole point behind Anakin - he's a hero who cannot control himself, that scene perfectly outlines that. but then you say the following: Anakin did not give into hate and anger, he was perfectly under control and his obly objective was to get his mother out of the camp - he goes in these hurting noone.... So which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control? And where does the Jedi Code say what to do when you can see your mother suffering in pain everynight? Anakin is fearful his mom is in pain and dieing. Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering. That's exactly the case with Anakin/the Jedi in these prequels, aside ffrom Gui-Gon, noone understands Anakin - and Anakin doesn't understand the Jedi. They understanding that with the loss of his Mother Anakin may give into the fear and hate and cause suffering.. Only through Luke does this happen. Anakin did not give into hate and anger, he was perfectly under control and his obly objective was to get his mother out of the camp - he goes in these hurting noone.... heroic but you said yourself that: He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe Thats the whole point behind Anakin - he's a hero who cannot control himself, that scene perfectly outlines that. Again, I ask... so which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control? ....then she allows herself to die, Anakin completely misunderstands this (he wont understand till Jedi) and lashes out at the camp - unheroic See? I'm not sure what to see. First you must explain if Anakin is in control of his hate and anger or not. Your post is terribly confusing. -----signature----- Dubbed "Paige I have More Porn Than Hustler" of the Knights of the JCC Sarcasm Table Master Baitor I will have my Sarcasm in this life or the next.
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Obi_Frans Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/10/04 5:45pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	Did I say you did say that? But when is it heroic to fail? He didn't fail, he went out there to save his mother and he did. He failed to control his emotions afterwards. Heroic act turns to unheroic act Common and daily events are generally not considered heroic. I've walked in many hospitals where sons don't want their mothers to live in pain. It's more a sympathetic act than heroic. Of course, but Anakin HELPS his mother ease her pain. Big difference, if a son went through trouble to find his mothers cure and then does - thats heroic, is it not? but then you say the following: So which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control? Did you even read what i said? He walked into that camp with ONE objective, to take his mother away from them - he went in there with control, he managed to control himself by sneaking in there and not raise any suspicion, he was in control by freeing her bonds and talking to her. THEN she's "complete" and allows herself to die, THEN he becomes confused ("Why couldn't i save her?") and frustrated, he decides to take it all out on the tuskens, THEN he becomes evil. He's at first heroic, a man with a clear purpose and THEN not, a man who has no control over what he does. Anakin is fearful his mom is in pain and dieing. Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering. And lo and behold - Obi-Wan has no idea how to handle Anakins fear for his mother, "Dreams Pass in Time", he completely skips past what Anakin is really feeling because he doesn't understand it. And lo and behold, in Empire both Yoda and Kenobi immediately pull all the breaks when Luke has his vision - they finally understand. They understanding that with the loss of his Mother Anakin may give into the fear and hate and cause suffering.. But they don't understand how to deal with Anakin and his mother, simply telling someone "fear is bad for you" isn't going to cut it. Anakin spend 9 years with his mother, that attachment is stronger than a line of a code. That's exactly why Yoda never wanted Anakin to be trained, because he had grown past those barriers. Only through Luke does this happen. Anakin understands what being a Jedi is all about through Luke Again, I ask... so which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control? "sigh" Anakin goes to save his mother: under control Anakins mother dies: not under control -----signature----- "He only wanted to save them. Padme, from death. Obi-Wan, from ignorance But they failed to recognize his power. Instead, Padme was dead & Obi-Wan was running for his life As stripped of everything as Vader was. Without friends, family, purpose" - Vader
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Sith_Sensei__Prime Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 12/10/04 6:11pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media? - Date Edited: 12/10/04 6:38pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Sith_Sensei__Prime
	He didn't fail, he went out there to save his mother and he did. His saved his mother? From what I could tell Shmi died. Therefore, he didn't save her. He failed to control his emotions afterwards. That's agreeable. Heroic act turns to unheroic act His attempt to save his mother is a failure and turns very unheroic. Of course, but Anakin HELPS his mother ease her pain. Big difference, if a son went through trouble to find his mothers cure and then does - thats heroic, is it not? It is not. Easing the pain is not saving a life, but rather aiding and comforting for the inevitable. Anakin failed to save her life. He made an attempt to be heroic but was unsucessful and therefore cannot be considered otherwise. Did you even read what i said? I did. I replied and said it was confusing. He walked into that camp with ONE objective, to take his mother away from them - he went in there with control, he managed to control himself by sneaking in there and not raise any suspicion, he was in control by freeing her bonds and talking to her. Now I see your point. It was not written as well in your previous post. Yes, this would fall under a mindful and willful attempt to be heroic but ended in failure. THEN she's "complete" and allows herself to die, THEN he becomes confused ("Why couldn't i save her?") and frustrated, he decides to take it all out on the tuskens, THEN he becomes evil. Great point. Anakin realized he failed as he couldn't save her. He's at first heroic, a man with a clear purpose and THEN not, a man who has no control over what he does. He's not heroic, thus "Why couldn't I save her?" and as a result of his failure to be heroic he slaughters Tusken Raiders. And lo and behold - Obi-Wan has no idea how to handle Anakins fear for his mother, "Dreams Pass in Time", he completely skips past what Anakin is really feeling because he doesn't understand it. Are sure about that? The Jedi seem to understand emotional attachment and thus remove "potential" Force Users at a very early age. To completely skip past this is something the Jedi would not do considering their protocol. And lo and behold, in Empire both Yoda and Kenobi immediately pull all the breaks when Luke has his vision - they finally understand. Finally understand or always did? Again, in The Phantom Menace the Jedi noted that Anakin's thoughts dwelled on his mother. They understood thoughts and visions. But they don't understand how to deal with Anakin and his mother, simply telling someone "fear is bad for you" isn't going to cut it. Anakin spend 9 years with his mother, that attachment is stronger than a line of a code. They totally understood and that is why they initially denied Anakin's training to become a Jedi. (i.e. "The Boy is too old.") That's exactly why Yoda never wanted Anakin to be trained, because he had grown past those barriers. See, even you illustrated the Jedi understood. For hundreds of years has Yoda trained Jedi, it's very doubtful we would not know how to deal. Anakin understands what being a Jedi is all about through Luke That he does. Luke shows him the Jedi are the redline that outlines whats heroic and whats not. "sigh" Anakin goes to save his mother: under control Anakins mother dies: not under control I sighed too trying to understand your post. You should have just said it like that. Read your own post. You basically start out saying, He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe . Question: Why does Anakin lose control? Answer: Because his attempt to be heroic fails. ("Why couldn't i save her?") -----signature----- Dubbed "Paige I have More Porn Than Hustler" of the Knights of the JCC Sarcasm Table Master Baitor I will have my Sarcasm in this life or the next.
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Obi_Frans Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/11/04 4:01am Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media? - Date Edited: 12/11/04 4:07am (2 edits total) Edited By: Obi_Frans
	His saved his mother? From what I could tell Shmi died. Therefore, he didn't save her. His attempt to save his mother is a failure and turns very unheroic. It is not. Easing the pain is not saving a life, but rather aiding and comforting for the inevitable. Anakin failed to save her life. He made an attempt to be heroic but was unsucessful and therefore cannot be considered otherwise. Great point. Anakin realized he failed as he couldn't save her. Question: Why does Anakin lose control? Answer: Because his attempt to be heroic fails. "now i am complete" That's the WHOLE point of the scene! Anakin cannot understand that he saved her, it's exactly like Luke saving Anakin at the end of Jedi and trying to keep him alive, "you already have Luke" He DID save his mother and WAS a hero, he simply does not understand that - SHMI does and WE do, or we should. Anakin does not realize he failed, he THINKS he failed - did Luke fail in saving Anakin at the end of Jedi? Cause i hate to keep bringing that up, but that is exactly the parallell George was making - Luke understands he SAVED Anakin, Anakin DOESN'T understand he saved Shmi Anakin learns the ultimate lesson in Jedi: to let go. He asks Luke to remove his mask so he can look upon his son one last time. He finally has achieved a sense of fulfillment, and is willing to let life take its course. This is a lesson that he should have learned from his mother when she died. She survived a month of torture hoping to see her son one last time. When he finally came to her, she let herself go, saying “now I am complete.” Anakin doesn't understand this in Clones - he does in Jedi. He saved his mother from life itself, it (plus the Tuskens) had physically killed her - but she mentally hung on (EXACTLY like Anakin does after he gets 'killed'), Anakin allowed her to be complete and "move on", again - EXACTLY what Luke does to him, he kills the mental barriers (in this case, Vader and the Darkside) and Anakin is 'complete'. Are sure about that? The Jedi seem to understand emotional attachment and thus remove "potential" Force Users at a very early age. To completely skip past this is something the Jedi would not do considering their protocol. Exactly, but Anakin WASN'T removed at a early age now was he? He spend a near childs lifetime with his mother, the Jedi - having taken all of their padawans from a early age, and especially Obi-Wan, have no experience with Anakin. Yoda might, because he doesn't want Anakin to be trained - but hes not Anakins mentor, Anakin skips the whole 'youngling' part because he's "too old" Finally understand or always did? Again, in The Phantom Menace the Jedi noted that Anakin's thoughts dwelled on his mother. They understood thoughts and visions. See, even you illustrated the Jedi understood. For hundreds of years has Yoda trained Jedi, it's very doubtful we would not know how to deal. You're saying Obi-Wans approach in Clones towards Anakins vision is the same as his approach towards Lukes in Empire? Really?? If the Jedi had known how to handle these occurences - then its odd that both Anakin and Obi-Wan cannot understand "why he keeps dreaming about her" Is it not? Cause Obi-Wan is the most direct pupil Yoda might have ever had, so..thats odd then, right? They understand in TPM that Anakin fears for his mother, but they dont understand how close his actual bond is with her - GuiGon did, Padme did, the Jedi didn't. If so, then surely Obi Wan wouldn't have just said "Dreams pass in Time" to Anakin, right? Because, as we find out later on, they most certainly weren't just "dreams". -----signature----- "He only wanted to save them. Padme, from death. Obi-Wan, from ignorance But they failed to recognize his power. Instead, Padme was dead & Obi-Wan was running for his life As stripped of everything as Vader was. Without friends, family, purpose" - Vader
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Tyranus_the_Hutt Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 12/12/04 3:27am Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	Sith_Sensei_Prime - My assertion that Luke, Leia, Han, etc. are two dimensional characters was not a criticism of the OT, purely an objective statement. I tend to get immersed in these films, but if you stand back and look at the characters in a critical manner, there really isn't alot of depth to them. Again, I'm not trying to complain here. My reason for invoking the OT was to point out that these films are not about psychological depth; there are other films for that sort of thing. "Star Wars" is about action scenes, pulp melodrama, dizzying thrills and a slight bit of hamminess. I suggested also that Luke was a traditional or classically-formed archetypal hero, and Anakin was deliberately concieved to present a moody, diametric opposition to him. For all of my above statements about applied psychology in regards to these films, I think that it is very interesting that one of the strengths of "Attack of the Clones" is that it has a certain psychological depth, particularly as it concerns Anakin. He is not a 'hero' per se, but does possess powers which he could use to become heroic. That's what's so interesting here. Everyone complains about Anakin's whining and selfish behavior and so-forth, but really, that is an entirely superficial matter. Lucas and his actor, Christensen, are able to really delve into and probe Anakin's psyche; the "Star Wars" saga hasn't had a more interesting character. He is conflicted and tortured and confused and immature and all of these factors feed into his greed, his arrogance, and his possessiveness. The fact that we are able to construe this in a lucid manner is a credit to the filmmakers. Simply because a character is not portrayed in precisely the manner that you wish him to be portrayed does not make it a misstep or fault, only a difference. By the way, I fail to understand your objection regarding any sort of reference that I might have made to "The Phantom Menace". Yes, I am quite aware that this is a forum devoted to "Attack of the Clones", but since any such references were pertinent to my argument, then it shouldn't matter. The key thing being discussed here is Anakin, and he happens to appear in more than one film. I also think that any sort of reference to the 'construct' of the "Star Wars" saga is pointed, considering that the pictures were designed in a particular manner (yes, including the OT) and its basic structure only lends itself to this sort of discussion; it is difficult to explore one film without citing another. I have mentioned elsewhere on these boards that Darth Vader's redemption in "Return of the Jedi" is less powerful if you haven't seen "The Empire Strikes Back"; that's just the way these things are built. I accept them as such. -----signature----- "The screen is a magic medium. It has such power that it can retain interest as it conveys emotions and moods that no other art form can hope to tackle." - Stanley Kubrick
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NeoBaggins Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/12/04 7:18pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media? - Date Edited: 12/12/04 7:27pm (4 edits total) Edited By: NeoBaggins
	Man, too many mouth-fulls since I posted that question. Sorry if I didnt read all your post ( theyre epic ) just bare with me or quote yourselves accordingly. "Winning the Boonta Eve Destroying the TF Control Ship Saving Obi-Wans life Thats 3 major acts already" Boonta Eve, heroic? Its not the first time hes raced Pods before and he has the reflexes to do it. Hes even admitted crashing. Its not really heroic. His Mom doesnt like him doing it and Watto "makes" him cause he can. If anything, Boonta eve was self help and a lucky break. Hes been Podracing and those are "awful races". This one just had a better outcome. Um, he blew up the control-ship by accident. He saved Obiwan like Solo saved Luke, so? How many movies have you seen were the main character is about to be demolished and someone takes the villain out from the back? A million times and with very capable characters. From Batman to Indiana Jones, some of our strongest and greatest heroes are saved by others. Sometimes children and sometimes, girls . Obiwan and Anakin are already in the "Jedi business" so one Jedi being able to help another is more of a duty and prerequisite than it is a heroic act. Its what they do. Dooku disabled both Jedi, had it been Anakin first under the blade, Obiwan would have had to save him. Oh yeah, its his fault Obiwan needed to be saved in the first place. "No, Im taking him now!" They never got to double-team him because of Anakin. And those acts were discribed as "3 major acts already". Well, lets run this down again. 1. Holding secret council with Palpatine and most likely discussing things hed like to keep from the council. Decietful. 2. Back-talking his master and making disrespectful comments about a very respected master. Arrogant and unwise. 3. Would-be acts of heroism are limited to the safety of his girlfriend. Selfishness. 4. Ready to go against the Jedi code for Padme. Lust. 5. Slaughtering an entire village including women and children out of revenge. 6. Continued council in private with Palpatine. A relationship going on for so long that he may be considered turned ( sybolically ) while still amongst the Jedi. 7. Gets married in secret in a direct contradiction of the Jedi code of ethics. 8. Considered a spoiler here, but its bad. 9. Considered a spoiler here, and its worse. Cant really sugar-coat it. Annie has done little in regards to heroics. Hes not a hero. His power as the chosen one is not granted until he recieves the power of the darkside. His midichlorian-filled skills are displayed in killing women, children, and 4foot bugs. Sorry. If I was harsh id say hes been a weak, perverted, murderer. -----signature----- You hear that? That's the sound of inevitability. You hear that? That's the A train. You hear that? That's the sound of a thousand terrible things heading this way.
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Darth_Mimic Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 12/13/04 5:52am Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	When Anakin meets with Palpatine, I believe it is because he believes that Palpatine is a good man. He even describes him as a good person to Obi Wan when the two of them discuss politicians. Anakin certainly is self centred, and arrogant (which is a trait most of the Jedi of the period share, according to Yoda). Anakin might be heretical (preferring his interpretation of the Force and goodness over that of 'legitimized' characters like Yoda or Obi Wan), but he always acts with the arrogance of someone who believes he is right. -----signature----- "I thought I was the Boy Scout." (Superman) Truth is the most valuable thing we have. (Twain) "Get this cheese to sickbay." (Voyager) Lieutanant, Imperial Squadron, TPMDF It's my rapper name. (N. Portman)
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 12/13/04 4:01pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media? - Date Edited: 12/13/04 4:02pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Go-Mer-Tonic
	I am the public and media, and I love AOTC. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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Frank1212 Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/13/04 5:30pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	The two main things that made AOTC "bad" in the public's eye: 1) Poor acting and dialogue. 2) Bad screenplay. I think the 1 and 2 are related. Without a good screenplay even the best actors/actresses will be hard pressed to bring out a good performance. I admit, a lot of the lines in AOTC were cheesy, particularly the love scenes. But in addition to the dialogue, the love story was built up poorly as well. We go from Padme shutting down Anakin by saying, "No, I should not have done that" to suddenly, "I've been dying a little bit each day since you left my life."
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NeoBaggins Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/13/04 7:14pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	"We live in a real world, come back to it" YIKES! The public and media hated AOTC because it was too busy loving me. AOTC loves NeoBaggins! Come here, AOTC. Yeah, baby. Daddy like, ooh, daddy likeeyy. AOTC, you take yourself in that room and slip into something more comfortable. I got the 54inch for you. The big one- with surround sound. Yeah, you like that dont you. You naughty lil movie you. Now beg me to press play on the remote.... -----signature----- You hear that? That's the sound of inevitability. You hear that? That's the A train. You hear that? That's the sound of a thousand terrible things heading this way.
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Darth_Mimic Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 12/14/04 4:15am Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	"We go from Padme shutting down Anakin by saying, "No, I should not have done that" to suddenly, "I've been dying a little bit each day since you left my life." There's a huge thread on whether or not the love story was plausible (in the saga forum). Some of us see Padme's struggle between what she wants and who she must be as very believable. -----signature----- "I thought I was the Boy Scout." (Superman) Truth is the most valuable thing we have. (Twain) "Get this cheese to sickbay." (Voyager) Lieutanant, Imperial Squadron, TPMDF It's my rapper name. (N. Portman)
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Frank1212 Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/14/04 4:48pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	But there must be a reason why she loves Anakin. Just merely lust and steely gazes is not enough to warrant a good love story.
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Jumpman Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/14/04 4:57pm Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	She wants to take care of him. It's not so much love. Remember, Padme has been with Anakin during some of his most important moments in his life. Padme's a fixer, a person who thinks about helping others before herself. It's the same with Anakin. She wants to ultimately take care of him. Add to the fact that she was about to die in the execusion arena, she proclaims her love for him, which in part is true but it's mostly to take care of Anakin. -----signature----- Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader. -Master Yoda: Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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G_Thing Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 12/15/04 11:47am Subject: RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
	Episode II turned out to be true to Lucas's classic style. It also has its place in Star Wars sage; i.e. the beginning of the Clone Wars. I've yet to be impressed with Hayden Christensen; it would be nice if Anakin could have some convincing personality. I think that alone left some critics shaking their heads. Another reason it didn't catch critics is it was very hard to understand who's on which side here with the droid army against the clones. Sidious and Dooku may be behind the whole thing, but that's sketchy. You really need to be a fan to catch how that works. All in all, AOTC lives up to original trilogy, because it has a decent story to tell. I've never felt like it was overly long or dull -- unlike Episode I. I consider it a very good Star Wars movie; just not a great one. -----signature----- Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops boy!
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