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Topic:
Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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gezvader28
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
12/15/04 5:29pm
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
- Date Edited:
12/15/04 5:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
gezvader28
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mimic my apologies , I meant to get back to this sooner, but I was busy.
I've answered this. I was talking about the character over the course of the film, not just the physical rebuilding. His (Threepio) character does change from what we see at the beginning of the film to what we see at the end.
I don't really see any change.
But I found it interesting that you think the unseen rebuild was mirroring Anakin, that's really scraping the bottom of the barrel, in fact it isn't even in the barrel!
As a viewer I'd have to say the most obvious thing that 3po does in aotc is getting dismantled, but that goes against your rebuild idea.
Since it's part of a multi film movement, it would be strange to say it stands alone from them
But you did say it stands alone. 
The major elements are the same. As for maturity, Anakin at nine is easily Luke's equal at the 19
Huh ? anakin at 9 is Luke's equal at 19 ?
Well anakin doesn't mature much after 10 years then ! He's more immature at 19 than Luke at 18 .
And Mos Espa isn't that much different from Mos Eisley
Eh? Luke didn't grow up in mos-eisley.
Their lifestyles were remarkeably similar.
But they didn't develop in exactly the same way, which is what you said.
I thought I did say it. Your agreement was never something I wanted. Actually, after reading some of your other posts in other threads, I would say that I'd rather have you disagree with me.
Now, now, no need for that.
I was genuinely interested in your idea that it was postmodern, I even encouraged you to give your definition of postmodern, but as I debated it with you you kept revising it until you reached the point where your definition included every film ever made.
Thus making your definition redundant.
Macbeth justified it to himself by saying it would also benefit others. Like Anakin justifies his desire for power saying he would be able to stop people from dying if he was powerful enough.
Look , that's an easy game, find 2 or 3 similarities between 2 characters, it could be done with anakin and any number of villains. But you said they develop in exactly the same way, they don't.
I suggest you stop exagerrating things, just say "they have some similarities" .
Feeling guilt after making what you perceive is a hard decision is natural; it doesn't mean that you think you aren't right
Guilt means you feel you've done something wrong, that doesn't fit with your theory that he always feels he's doing the right thing.
Even when Obi is in trouble he doesn't know what to do, his girlfriend has to tell him.
Yes, he's often arrogant, but don't say that he always thinks he's right, again, that's exagerration.
Lucas doesn't need to overtly say he is inspired by Huston or Shakespeare in order for a person to see the intertextual connection
There's a problem with you using that Eco quote:
His quote is clearly talking about the author's intent:
". I think of the postmodern attitude as that of a man who loves a very cultivated woman and knows he cannot say to her, “I love you madly” because he knows that she knows (and that she knows that he knows) that these words have already been written by Barbara Cartland. Still, there is a solution. He can say, “As Barbara Cartland would put it, I love you madly.”
But you say the author, Lucas , is irrelevant.
However - I think it may be relevant in another way - Barbara Cartland was well known for writing one dimensional characters spouting dreadful dialogue - HEY - Anakin and Padme ! Maybe Lucas is saying "as Barbara Cartland would put it."
It's intertextual. It doesn't mean that Anakin had to speak with a Scots brogue. It means that there are parallels in the story. I've mentioned that already.
Never said there weren't parallels.
ANH did all of those things, yes. Every Star Wars film does all of those things. It doesn't take away from the achievements of the other films to recognize the achievements in AotC.
Hey, you're the one that said aotc "stands alone..." etc.
I asked you why you thought it was a "stand alone piece of postmodernism" etc. and you came back with all that stuff about 3po being rebuilt and anakin believing that what he does is always right, and neither of those are very good observations.
Then you made a big deal about intertextuality, but so what? Loads of films do that .
Ultimately your definition of postmodernism got so broad it encompassed every film and you exagerrate things like Anakin and Macbeth's similarities to "exact same" .
And your use of the Eco quote doesn't really work .
Sorry, but I think your idea are poorly thought out .
You made very grand claims about aotc as "a stand alone .."etc. but ultimately your evidence for this is just pointing out similarities with other stories .
and to that I have to say - so what ?
I'm not trying to offend you, I challenge your ideas and test them cos that's the way to see if they work. That's debate.
g
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Darth_Mimic
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
12/15/04 7:12pm
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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"Sorry, but I think your idea are poorly thought out .
You made very grand claims about aotc as "a stand alone .."etc. but ultimately your evidence for this is just pointing out similarities with other stories .
and to that I have to say - so what ?"
Well, at this point, I'm more likely to 'agree to disagree' with you. Between your posts in the Basher's Sanctuary (a good idea, that sanctuary) and your posts on the 'bringing Anakin's mother' I think that we just have too divergent opinions. I see AotC as postmodern because of the many reasons I've stated already. But while the film is more 'postmodern' than, say TPM, it requires the existence of the other films (and of Shakespeare) to be postmodern. You, on the other hand, haven't given a coherent definition of what you see postmodernism is, or why AotC doesn't fit your definition. I'll wait for that from you before continuing in this discussion.
Or maybe I'm just tired, and I'll say more tomorrow.
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Lrog192
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
12/15/04 7:28pm
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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Hey where did that DBrenna333 guy go? He was so much fun. I'm new here so I just want to say that I liked AOTC. sure it was cheesy in some parts, kinda lovey-dovey, but people dont have to condemn it!!!
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Darth_Mimic
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
12/16/04 4:24am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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Ahem... This is going to be a bit long, and probably boring. I'd like to apologize in advance...
The biggest problem with postmodernism comes with defining it. We'd like to be able to start with 'postmodernism follows after modernism' but unfortunately Shakespeare and Chaucer (and many others) use elements of postmodern writing in their works. And, when you take deconstruction to its extremes, every work appears to have elements of the postmodern.
So, what do things like Midnight's Children and Ghostbusters have in common? Both are postmodern, but how? I think I have an answer, but I know that smarter people than I have been wrestling with this for decades (since about 1960) and still have no clear answer.
I believe that postmodernism is a return to the mythic archetype, now conveyed in pop culture medium, where traditional imagery and icons are transformed from the sublime or dramatic to the ridiculous, self absorbed, or flawed.
How does this apply to AotC? Well, the traditional hero archetype is no longer self assured, altruistic, or particularly moral. Anakin is greedy, selfish, and vengeful, and he operates under his own moral code which he continually redefines under different situations.
As for AotC being a stand alone as postmodern when compared to the other SW films... Anakin is a traditional hero in TPM. He follows the accepted wisdom of the archetypal teacher figure (Qui Gonn), and embarks on a quest. Luke, in the OT, functions in the same way. His larger quest (shown in all three films) is to become a jedi. But each film also has its own quest embedded in the narrative (destroy Death Star, rescue friends, confront Vader).
In debating this subject, I realize that I have made a few errors. I tend to see more mirroring in the text of the film than others (they're everywhere). I should never have referred to Shakespeare, as any story told has similarities to Shakespeare somewhere. Most of all, I was trying to prove that the film was postmodern by showing it employed some of the techniques of postmodernity. They are symptoms of the postmodern, but can also be found in other critical areas.
I hope this clears things up.
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"I thought I was the Boy Scout." (Superman)
Truth is the most valuable thing we have. (Twain)
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DBrennan3333
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
12/18/04 7:04pm
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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Hey, enough has gone bad in my life that this will go right: This thread WILL get to 500 posts. I expect and demand help from all of you!
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CloneCommander07
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/19/04 12:07am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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The media view the whole PT as the death of the SW trilogy. They say things like, "The PT has a bad storyline and added CGI to make it better."
The few "corny" lines don't help AOTC's ratings either.
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JohnWesleyDowney
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/19/04 2:02am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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The media is full of morons.
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Peace.
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Ana_Labris
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
12/19/04 3:07am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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Aye, JohnWesleyDowney! I say people need some more backbone, loose all the useless need to please, and maybe read this thread and many others around the net to get a different presepective from the one force-fed to them by the media. I know of far too many people who have changed their opinions because someone 'smarter' told them they should, and it's IMHO, sad.
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aPPmaSTer
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
12/23/04 7:12am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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DBrennan3333,
I didn't read all the posts on this subject cuz there are just too many, but it looks to me like you are a person of intelligence and I think it's time someone spoke with you than against you.
First of all, this is my FIRST post on TheForce.net, and the main reason I joined was to share my opinion about AOTC.
Ok, just so that nobody starts a brawl about it, this is MY OPINION on the movie, and it's obvious that not many of the people that replied to DBrennan share this opinion. But nonetheless, everyone has the right to share his/her point of view so here's mine:
I've been a SW fan all my life, and everybody around me knew me as the "Star Wars freak." But when I saw AOTC all that changed. AOTC made me rethink and reanalyze every little second of the Star Wars saga from how bad it was. Here's why I think it was so bad:
1) The acting of Anakin and Padme was horrible. This is a love story that had such high potential, it could've been the best space love story of all time. Yet it proved to be an awkward "play hard to get" theme that nobody appreciates.
2) The dialogue throught the whole movie was extremely awkward and even contradicting at times. The person(s) who wrote the dialogue should be:
a) fired
b) crushed
c) ground into tiny pieces
d) blasted into oblivion
3) The CG graphics throughout the movie are rather poor for the actual CREATORS of ILM. The CG Yoda looks really fake, the infamous "Padme biting the pear" scene was awful, the fight with Yoda and Dooku, plus many other scenes are just examples of the poor quality of the graphics of the movie. How come the other movies didn't have this problem? ANH was made almost 30 years ago, and evething you saw on the screen was believable. And how about TPM, it was largely CG, but it still seemed believable. I think Lucas got cocky with the graphics and overdid it a bit.
4) The story. It wasn't convincing, for example, why would the Jedi commit mass suicide by going to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan and stop the separatists MINUTES before the clones arrive?? For beings of wisdom that didn't seem very wise...plus of course there are at least a dozen more examples of senseless events in the story.
To sum it up, AOTC was the worst SW film in my opinion. It was the one I watched the least number of times out of all of them because every time I watch it I keep seeing its mistakes and nothing else and it drives me crazy! It does have a lot of positive things to be honest, but the negative ones just make you not see them anymore.
I love Star Wars, and I love what AOTC could have been, but I hate AOTC, and not one person that I know, besides you people in the forum, thinks that it was a good movie. I'm sorry if any of you were offended, belive me that was not my intent. I just want to see this huge injustice to the Star Wars name avenged. I hope Lucas fixes AOTC (if that's even possible) and takes our words into consideration for ROTS.
That's all for now, peace out!
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BenduHopkins
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
2/25/05 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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AOTC is a popcorn munching hair raising thrill ride, with quirky, corny and profound characters. We have been overfed good special effects by lesser films. Perhaps the world has "grown up" since the original trilogy, and speedy buck rogers scifi cartoony movies are no longer to the taste, with the majority preferring either decidedly kiddie (Harry Potter), or decidedly adult (LOTR) sci-fi/fantasy movies. George is neither child nor man, and his movies benefit from it. In 50 years time, we'll see how the prequels have remained of interest.
One thing George has sense of is form. Form and connections. And scale. The 6 movies as a whole will certainly be a rich experience for anyone viewing them from beginning to end. In George's style, it takes one movie to tell a pulp serial tale, but it takes 6 to tell a supremely effecting dramatic epic.
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Hudnall
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
2/25/05 7:35pm
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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Gomer: I am the public and media, and I love AOTC.
I am the public and media, and I loathe AOTC.
----
As to heroes: There are NO heroes in this movie.
AOTC isn't even a real movie, just pieced together cutscenes from a video game with a 7-year old's romance novel thrown in, and John William's previous music scores shuffled into the background.
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obi1jedinite
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
2/26/05 1:48am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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Uric-Qel-Droma
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/26/05 3:12am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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i didnt mind AOTC.
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Lukecash
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/26/05 3:15am
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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I work in the media.
I can garuntee you one thing.... they spend too much time on the web. And they think those of us who here are the true indicators.
We're not.
Take a look at BO. ALL of the movies passed $300 mil mark. If a movie makes $150 mil it's a hit.
You don't make that kind of money by being hated by the people. Sky Captian TRIED to do Lucas...even more than LUCAS tried to do Lucas.
And I had "Fans" who saw it at the Sandeago Comicon, and claimed it was the next Star Wars.
Backfired.
BIG TIME.
Mark my words. Time will work for PT.
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Darth_Mimic
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
2/27/05 2:57pm
Subject:
RE: Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?
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It surprised me that this thread has come back up. I thought that when it was decided that the film had an overall positive rating on rottentomatoes.com, combined with a box office take of over 300 million, that it was actually loved by the public and media.
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