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Author	Topic: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:46am Subject: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 11:02am (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Odious
	The moderators have been contacted to lock the old thread, before anyone complains. NOTE: PLEASE READ THIS AND THE NEXT POST BEFORE STARTING IN ON THIS THREAD. DON'T BE A MR. BUNGLES!!! THE POST THAT STARTED IT ALL: “OK, bear with me folks, I have to use all 4 films to give this proof. 1. Sensing the Dark side of the force. IN TPM, Yoda said 'hard to see the dark side is'; not 'impossible'. Even young Luke could sense the Dark side on dagobah in ESB; even though no sith was there to manipulate it. Luke also sensed it before he saw Darth Vader in Bespin; he ignited his Sabre before seing Vader. Therefore, the Dark side's presence is easily detected in person, so to speak. In TPM, the entire Jedi Council stands next to Palpatine at Qui-Gonn's funeral. If he was the Sith master, they'd know it! 2. The attempt to control then kill Queen Amidala in TPM. Two other things in TPM prove Sidious and Palpatine had different knowledge of events. Sidious wants the Queen controlled on Naboo to sign the treaty. When she is at Coruscant, Palpatine tries to discourage her from returning to Naboo, where she'd be forced to sign the treaty. If he was in fact Sidious, this is exactly what he wants. He would not try to discourage her. Further, and this is a clincher, Palpatine knows she returned to Naboo. But when Sidious talks to the Trade Viceroy, he does not warn her the Queen is coming!!! If Palpatine was Sidious he would have made sure they were warned of her coming, and were waiting for her arrival. Instead, she got past them. Also, Palpatine knew she 'was going to take back what is ours'. That she intended to fight to retake Naboo. She told him so before leaving Coruscant. But Sidious expressed surprise at learning of the Queen's arrival on the planet & organizing an army to fight... "this is an unexpected move for her... its too aggressive". 3. Cloning (AOTC spoilers) We know the Senate was manipulated into granting Palpatine emergency powers. That he chose to create a clone army to defend the republic. Again, Sidious is working behind the scenes, using this as a means to setup the destruction of the Jedi. But the clone army is used to fight and defeat the forces of Darth Tyranus. It is not reasonable for Sidious to fight on both sides, so to speak. I think Sidious was behind the entire cloning program. I think Palpatine is one of the very first clones ever - a clone of Sidious himself. I believe Palpatine is what he appears to be - an ambitious but scrupulous politician. He is the Emperor, but one who never succumbed to the Dark Side of the Force. He is a Pawn. Sidious created Palpatine, a clone of himself. He manipulated events to get Palpatine elected chancellor. He then went further and engineered a revolt, knowing Palpatine would have no choice but to bow to senate pressure to declare an emergency. Using Palpatines innocent sincerity, he is able to keep the Jedi ignorant of his real designs. They deal with Palpatine regularly; and sense no evil. But since Palpatine is Sidious' clone... In Episode III, he kills or has Palpatine Killed so he can replace him. So he has acheived his goal of Galactic Empire, without ever putting himself at risk. You need only look at the OT to realize, the Emperor uses others to do his dirty work. Look at how he planned to use Luke to kill Vader and replace him. This is one sneaky manipulator. I doubt he would risk exposure to the entire Jedi Order by direct personal contact. It creates too much risk. Not to mention a huge plot quandary. NON-FILM PROOF Timothy Zahn wrote the Lucas-officially-sanctioned trilogy to follow ROTJ. In it, the Bad Guy is a CLONED JEDI MASTER! He is insane, and gave into the dark side. At the end of the Third book, he is referred to as the 'resurrected' Emperor. The emperor's Tarantus Mountain project is built around his secret cloning program. So it is only natural to infer that Cloning of Jedi is not a new thing. I submit that the Emperor cloned himself first; and created Palpatine. The idea that a Sith Master could deal with the Jedi council on a daily basis, as Palpatine does, and remain undiscovered is ludicrous. It is also contrary to the nature of the Emperor. The Emperor went to great lengths to keep his movements and whereabouts secret. He also gaurded himself at all times, even when Vader was present. Note his rebuke (and seeming mistrust?) of Vader when he returned to the Death Star after sensing Luke. The Imperial Gaurd is present. The Emperor does not even trust Vader. (And with good reason, as we happily learned later.) Considering the Emperor goes to such extremes to protect himself from even those he seemingly trusts, it is absurd he would expose himself to immense personal danger by spending any time in the presence of the entire Jedi Council. This guy's a coward at heart; he values his own life too much to risk it foolishly. He prefers to risk the lives of others to do his dirty work. (Mara Jade and her like, Boba Fett, Darth Maul, etc.) CONCLUSION: Sidious created a clone of himself, Palpatine. He manipulates events behind the scenes to get Palpatine into a dictatorial position. Once there, he offs the poor sap, and replaces him without anyone knowing it until too late. Then he uses the emergency powers granted by the Senate, to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. Assuming I'm right about all of this, I expect a heavy chunk of the royalties from Ep. III... hehehe. “ Originally posted by Jedi-Wanna-Be
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Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:47am Subject: RE: *The Official Palpatine Clone Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 10:49am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Odious
	PART 2: REQUIRED READING FOR THIS THREAD Here are some of the notes I’ve put together from the original thread. Many of the questions bring up have answers below, please feel free to add further posts that cover the standard responses to FAQ’s that I forgot/missed. Strongholds of the Anti-Clone Argument: -The similarities between Sidious' office and Palpatines. This one's not necessarily hard, as they could be the same office, and palpy is just that forward at times. -The voice over in the making of portion of the DVD, which apparently refers to either sidious' office as Palpy's, or is referring to the set as being the same. We need a quote of this one. I don't have the DVD, because I'm a loser, but if someone who has it could get the quote, that would be great. Again, this doesn't destroy the clone theory per se, but it does lead us into point 3. -Sidious sure seems awfully brazen for someone fearing detection. Especially if he's showing up at palpy's office. The clone theorists then have to determine if its being in the same room with the jedi that the sith are avoiding, or the same general area. -The clone theory is anticlimactic, a non-twist, as the casual viewer thinks they are different people altogether, and only we expect them to be the same. Good point. My take is, if he did the clone theory, it would be to give us, his fanatics, one more twist for the road, and not worry about the casual viewer whose eyes will pop out at the special effects anyway. Clones and The Force -Clones of people trained in use of the force are not force users themselves without training. -Because midichlorians are symbiotes, it is questionable whether a clone of a jedi/sith would not have midichlorians, or if there is a gene that attracts them. -Force ability is probably hereditary, as seen in the Skywalker family. Sensing Force Users -Most documented cases of force users detecting each other involve those who have feelings for each other or the use of powerful feelings. Darth sensed Luke, the Emporer did not. Ani was sensed, but it is unclear, were he not the one, that he would have been sensed so far from Coruscant otherwise, and the feelings and his actions when it happened were, with the exception of the death of the emporer and the redemption of ani, the most powerful event in the force ever. -It is unclear whether jedi could sense a sith in front of them. Qui Gon did not sense Maul, he was warned of him by more conventional means. Yoda said Dooku was of the dark side, but Dooku was standing over the one armed Ani and the incapacitated obi wan at the time, plus had just been using his sith powers, so it was pretty obvious. -On the other hand, sensing those with force potential who are untrained is not a clue that a plot is afoot. Thus, the Palpy clone, being possibly high in midichlorians, would not be more suspect just because he has them. Darth Sidious’ Eyes -The Emporer in ROTJ had yellow eyes. -Palpatine in the PT has blue eyes. -Sidious’ eyes have not been revealed. NOTE: THERE IS A PRESS STILL OF SIDIOUS WITHOUT YELLOW CONTACTS. HOWEVER, THE ACTOR WOULD NOT BE WEARING SUCH LENSES ON THE SET OF A MOVIE WHERE HIS EYES ARE NOT REVEALED. THUS IT IS JUST A PRESS STILL, NOT CANON. Palpatine, The Clone -In order for Palpatine to function as a senator, he could not be a clone like the clonetroopers, with diminished will, but must be like Boba, fully functioning. -Clearly the clone would have to be intelligent, and thus would see that his life was in great danger by being part of Sidious'’plan, as the only reason to put a clone of yourself in power is to kill him and take his place without having to get tied up in the rise to political power. Thus, the clone must be controlled somehow. My idea is that Sidious is always not too far away from Palpy, but that is just my idea. The Jedi and Indoctrination -As the Palpy clone might be high in midichlorians, this raises the issue of whether the jedi would have found him in youth and trained him. However, this also supposes that jedi training is compulsory for all children, which does not seem likely in the republic. Jedi Mindscans -At no point in any of the star wars movies has a jedi ascertained more than feelings and related images from a mindscan, as exemplified in Vader’s discovery of the sister. A detailed plot has NEVER been revealed in the stories, and the jedi power seems to be a form of empathy that borders on telepathy at best, and not a form of mind reading a la Professor Xavier. -It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that jedi can walk around scanning the thoughts of senators on Curoscant, as the senators are the rulers of the galaxy, NOT the jedi. The Phantom Menace Box Quote: “AND PALPATINE, WELL KNOWN AS THE EVIL EMPEROR, IS AN AMBITIOUS SENATOR IN THE GALACTIC REPUBLIC..." Seeing as he is not called palpatine in the OT(as opposed to the novelization), and only us geeks really knew him as Palpatine when the OT was out, "well known" is kind of stretching the truth, isn't it? Unless, he's saying that the Emporer was well known as Palpatine to those in the Star Wars universe. Then, the statement becomes true. However, if Palpatine was a clone, who sidious killed and assumed his name, then the above statement STILL HOLDS TRUE. George Lucas’ Voice Over on the DVD: -"Introducing Darth Sidious as a hologram was the way he was introduced actually in The Empire Strikes Back, which was the first time we actually saw him in the first three films." -And if Palpy was a clone who was killed and his identity stolen by Darth Sidious, the above statement holds true as well. Sidious was shown as a hologram and the Emporer was shown as a hologram. If the Emporer is just Sidious adopting the name palpatine, no problem. “But the Emporer and Palpy are different heights, and the The Key Grip for TPM said this!” -If its not a movie, its not really evidence for a discussion of the final product that will be Ep. III. Same goes for OS, EU, and all of your older brother’s comic books. “Can I Come on This Thread and Call People Stupid?” -Yes, if you’re that kind of weenie, you can. Most of the above is derived from this, rather lengthy, thread: PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)
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Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:53am Subject: RE: *The Official Palpatine Clone Debate Thread*
	Long Live the Clones!
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foxbatkllr Title: SDFF VIP Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:55am Subject: RE: *The Official Palpatine Clone Debate Thread*
	If its not a movie, its not really evidence for a discussion of the final product that will be Ep. III. Same goes for OS, EU, and all of your older brother’s comic books. I see. NON-FILM PROOF Timothy Zahn wrote the Lucas-officially-sanctioned trilogy to follow ROTJ. In it, the Bad Guy is a CLONED JEDI MASTER! He is insane, and gave into the dark side. At the end of the Third book, he is referred to as the 'resurrected' Emperor. Huh? You can't have it both ways!!! -----signature----- Final Ranking: ROTS, ESB, AOTC, ANH, TPM, ROTJ
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Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:57am Subject: RE: *The Official Palpatine IS NOT Sidious Debate Thread*
	I was giving credit to the original poster. I agree, that evidence is not admissable as proof.
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obhavekenobi78 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:57am Subject: RE: *The Official Palpatine Clone Debate Thread*
	Well, that sums it up! Good job Darth_Odious. I don't think that I have heard any solid proof yet for either side. It's all speculation and guessing. I have to admit though it's very interesting stuff. I stand by my original thought: Palpatine is the love child of the Monkey Woman from ESB and Darth Sidious! -----signature----- I apologize for any incontinence this may have caused.
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:58am Subject: RE: *The Official Palpatine IS NOT Sidious Debate Thread*
	*makes a copy and paste rendition of "Required reading of posts 1 and 2 on page 1, before we will consider your arguments." hehehehe!!!
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netslave Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 10:59am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	that's a better title. -----signature----- I have a headache the slave is back!!!!! ------------------------------ "He's gonna smell like hot dogs" -Ralph Quimby
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:00am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 11:04am (1 edits total) Edited By: Undomiel
	(Put formerly known as "PROOF: Palpatine is NOT Sidious (Lenghty Proof)"
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obhavekenobi78 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:06am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 11:08am (1 edits total) Edited By: obhavekenobi78
	Attention Clone theory proponents Does this sound right? I am trying to understand. Sidious at some point is seduced by a Dark Master. He then bests his master and begins training his apprentices. At some time, he creates a clone of himself, drops it on Naboo, and finds a family to raise the baby (Palps). Somehow, this family is not suspicious when the baby displays accelerated growth, and no one else notices either. Palpatine is influenced by Sidious to become active in politics and begins to manipulate the local government to keep Palpatine on the move. Palpatine is unaware of Sidious and is having his strings pulled from afar. As Palpatine moves up the political chain, all the way to Chancellor, not one Jedi ever notices that he is being manipulted by the Dark Side. Once everything is in place, Sidious kills Palpatine, assumes the name and controls the Empire. Does that sound right? -----signature----- I apologize for any incontinence this may have caused.
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jedi4500 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:07am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	i am in the middle with the sidious/palpatine issue...i think they are the same, but why wouldnt GL just make it known to us in either TPM or AOTC? He makes it so obvious that they are the same person, that i feel they are really not...
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netslave Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:07am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 11:12am (1 edits total) Edited By: netslave
	repeat of my reply in other thread: fox says: 1. As far as the debate regarding Anakin and Vader, ROTJ can't be used just like evidence from Episode 3 can't be used for the Palps/Sidious debate. 2. Is this the same Obi-Wan that told Luke that Vader killed Anakin? why can't we use all the films as evidence? if we can't, then you can't even use ani/vader as an argument at all! -----signature----- I have a headache the slave is back!!!!! ------------------------------ "He's gonna smell like hot dogs" -Ralph Quimby
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tnt Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:07am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Why does'nt Palpatine instruct the Jedi to kill Sidious before Sidious gets a chance to kill him? -----signature----- RIP clone theory 1998 - 2003
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netslave Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:10am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	(because it'll be sidious who gets killed and palpatine is the real sith lord) I think I am the only one who thinks this way. -----signature----- I have a headache the slave is back!!!!! ------------------------------ "He's gonna smell like hot dogs" -Ralph Quimby
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Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:10am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	It depends on the theorist, I don't know if accelerated growth was used. That was a specific clause in the clonetrooper order, and was not used with boba fett. Also, I have not theorized who made the clone. It could be part of an overall sith plot predating sidious, possibly foreseen by his master(sidious being sort of the sith "one"). Of course, that hasn't made its way into the clone theory yet.
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Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 11:12am Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	And ALL the films are evidence.
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