Jedi Council Forums - ***The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread***

Jedi Council Forums » Star Wars Films » Attack of the Clones »

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

« 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 » - Previous | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:40pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Lord Odious, Please refer to posts 1 and 2 on page 1.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:42pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Verry, That is a verry (no pun intended) good point!!! I must add it to my growing list of clone theory loopholes.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Verry Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:43pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Thanx, although, could you elaborate on how that effects the clone theory?
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:44pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 3:45pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Undomiel
	It sufficiently ties up one loophole, that being the viewing order having any effect on whether or not people know Palpatine is shown as the Emperor later on.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:46pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Yes, if the series is meant to be watched 4-6, then 1-3, then there will be no surprise twist at all in the PT, at least not involving Palpatine. Unless he's a clone. Which he is. What are these posts one and two you're talking about?
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Verry Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:48pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Okay, here, is Palpatine ever mentioned in the OT. Im just not sure. I thought that he was always referred to as "The Emperor" But in ep. 1. George really just figured that he wouldn't say what we didn't already know. Such as the lightsaber. Everyone would would think that it was a laser sword(that's what Anakin calls it). So, for the first viewing ever, it's gotta be 4-6. Then 1-3. But from everytime after, it's 1-6.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:51pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Agreed. BTW, he's not called palpatine in the OT movies, but in the novellizations he is. I haven't figured out if those count as canon or not.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:53pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	So essentially what you are saying is, since we are supposed to already know Palpatine will be the Emperor of the OT, that means he could feasibly be a clone of Sidious, since there's no mention of Sidious in the OT but Emperor Palpatine is often referred to as the Emperor of the OT in any extranneous materials, such as the EU. This would be the first piece of hard evidence to discard with the previous anti-clone debatoid, "No one knows he's the Emperor of the OT! YET!" Ah, but if we are meant to watch them in 4-6, 1-3 succession, then we are meant to know Palpatine is supposed to be the Emperor and yet, what we have is Sidious looking like the Emperor and Palpatine looking like a nice guy that loves democracy and has blue eyes.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:57pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	OK, time for me to go home. I was hoping Maverick would make it on here before I left, but such is life. Hope you like the new hideout Mav. As for the rest of our motley band of malcreants, have a good weekend, and don't let the fact the Palpy is a clone get you down. Oh, here, I'll give you a topic for discussion while I'm gone. What about the rule of two? I mean, sidious' clone would be a sith master too, wouldn't he? Later Und, Taes, Verrry, Darth OT(Your handle cracks me up), OB(yours too), even B1LL, who just refused to check post 1 and 2, have a good one.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002 Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 3:58pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 4:01pm (1 edits total) Edited By: FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002
	For the matter at hand, "is Palpatine Sidious ?" -There is no advantage for Sidious to take a Clone. It complicates things really. -A clone is a biological replica, but cloning doesn't duplicate character, mind, experience, etc ... Which means that Sidious would have a lot of work to do to have his clone be both creative, intelligent (he has to be), and yet totally submited. If he has the power to do it with his dark side powers, why not control any weak minded senator or whatever rather than take a clone ? ---> There is no good reason for Sidious to have a clone of himself be Chancellor. Any other solution would be better,simpler and safer than that !! -Ian Mc Diarmid said in the latest issue of Empire that his character wore a mask, metaphorically. He also stated many times that Palpatine decides deliberatly to keep part of this life a secret. -The whole point of Sidious/Palpatine is to show the rise of a tyran, how a dictator can destroy democracy. Palpatine has to be Sidious for it to work. If Palpatine is just a muppet controlled by the evil Sidious, you're in the "exorcist", not starwars. -dooku explained that the dark side clouds the jedi's vision, and they cannot detect the Sith Lord who works under their nose. Why come up with that explanation if EpIII reveals that it was just a matter of clones ???? And if the clone thing is just an idea to avoid detection, why do the clone and the original live on the same planet, same city, and even same building ???? Why ??? -Palpatine is intended to be a bad guy by Lucas. A bad guy who acts as a good guy to get what he wants. -Lucas said in the french magazine "studio" in 1999 that Palpatine was the one who would destroy the Republic and rule the Empire. -In another interview, he said it would be Sidious. -Lucas said in the TPM DVD audio documentary that Palpatine would be involved with Anakin in EpII&III. He also said in the latest Lucasfilm insider that since Sidious managed to turn a jedi master (dooku), it established that he could turn another jedi, and that it is an important plot point. In the french magazine "Mad Movies", in 1999, Lucas said that Palpatine turning Anakin was also a way to avenge Maul death : OB1 had killed his apprentice, and it is fitting that the Sith Master turns OB1's apprentice (very interesting interview btw). -Lucas wanted to have Palpatine and Anakin to interact in TPM and AOTC to foreshadow and set things up for what's to come in EpIII. -Lucas also stated that Sidious is the Emperor (TPM DVD documentary, about sidous' holograms). -Would Sidious trust a weak minded clone to seduce Anakin ?? I don't think so. -If Anakin befriends "nice clone Palpatine", do you think he would join Sidious when it is revealed that Palpatine was just a possessed puppet ?? Nope. -Lucas said that in each prequel Palpatine makes another step to absolute power : chancellor in TPM, emergency powers in AOTC, Emperor in epIII. Oh, and guess what, the Emperor is Sidious ! God !! ---->> Lucas indifferently uses the name Sidious or Palpatine in his interviews. He keeps the two IDs separated for obvious reasons. The story works better that way, especially if you watch the films in order. It's not meant to be a big secret, but it would be just cheesy and pointless to reveal it as soon as EpI or II. Period. Sith lords use secrecy and deception. They like to play both sides : Dooku/Tyranus, Sidious/Palpatine. The details now : -Sidious and Palps share the same senatorial apartment in TPM. Why use a clone if they live in the same apartment ?? Why exactly ?? -Palps has the same red guards as the Emperor in ROTJ, and the same throne. -Palps walks like Sidious and the Emperor in his scene with Anakin (AOTC). -The close up shot of Palpatine during Qui-Gon's funeral says a lot ("... which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice ?"). -Palpatine's smiles when Amidala calls for a vote of no-confidence, and when she leaves for Naboo. -Palpatine's meaningful glance after Amidala and the Jedi accept his proposal to place the Naboo senator under the protection of OB1 and Anakin.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Odious Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 4:04pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 4:05pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Odious
	Darnit, FOTR, how dare you put up an interesting post when I have to leave. I feel a disturbance in the force. Could you put up some of these George quotes? The previously referrenced quotes turned out to be somewhat unsupportive of EITHER theory. They were interpreted a certain way, but when the quotes were actually posted, they turned out to be nebulous on the relationship.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_OlsenTwins Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 4:11pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 4:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_OlsenTwins
	Well, FOTR If it could be possible for me to believe they are the same person MORE than I already did after reading that post... Nice work -----signature----- I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth Mischievous Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 6/7/02 4:18pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	What FOTR said. -----signature----- "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who are not." --Thomas Jefferson
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_OlsenTwins Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 4:43pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Feta cheese is really good... Its made from goat's milk, y'know... -----signature----- I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002 Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 6/7/02 4:46pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/7/02 4:50pm (1 edits total) Edited By: FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002
	Darth Odious : I'll look for the exact quotes, but right now my mags are in my son's room and he's sleepiing (I'm from Paris, it's 01:18 am here). Anyway, most are from french magzines back in 1999, so I'll have to translate them for you). You can check the TPM DVD audio documentary for yourself, as well as the latest lucasfilm insider. When Lucas wrote the OT, he had to find a name for the Emperor : he came up with the name "Palpatine" in the ANH novelization prologue, titled "the journal of the whills" where the history of the Empire is told briefly. Later, during the writing of ESB, it was decided that the Emperor was a force user. In ROTJ, the Emperor became the big vilain, a very powerful dark sider. He was just called "The Emperor", but the name Palpatine survived in the novelization, press, and later in the Expanded Universe. Much later, when Lucas wrote TPM, he came up with the idea that the Sith were the darksiders (EU idea, but with a twist), and that they all took "darth" names (new idea) : we already knew darth vader. We were then introduced to darth maul and darth sidious. It helped Lucas as a writer : how could he have a dark sorcerer be a senator, and be elected to the highest office ? How could it be realistic and believable ? Palpatine had to hide his true nature, and appear more like a politician (old idea from "the journal of the whills"), while he was in fact a sith lord and dictator-to-be (the Emperor from ESB, ROTJ), Darth Sidious. It was a wonderful way to protray the fall of democracy at the hands of a dangerous tyran : people vote for someone who promises them better days (we shave gratis tomorrow), and once in office, the leader reveals his true nature : dictator, fascist, tyran. That's the point of this Sidious/Palpatine thing. When you watch ROTJ you wonder "how could this guy get elected ? how could the people trust him ?" (When you watch any earthly dictator or tyran, you wonder the same thing !!). In the prequels, Lucas answers these questions nicely. Palpatine is the typical politician who can use democracy to destroy democracy. He is bad from the start, but people find out too late. Think about it : the clone thing weakens the plot, weakens the character, weakens the "fall of democracy" theme, weakens the dark side, weakens the whole saga. Plus, as I tried to explain in my previous post, it is totally absurd. I'm not proving anything here (only Lucas could, until EpIII settles that matter once and for all), just trying to explain why Lucas came up with the Sidious/Palpatine idea, and why having them be clones makes no sense.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

« 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 » - Previous | Next | Reload

Jedi Council Forums » Star Wars Films » Attack of the Clones »