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Author	Topic: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
Count_Draku Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:01pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Maverick: thanks. I thought I might also point out some interesting editing I noticed in my third AOTC viewing. We're all aware of the infamous line, "The senate is now under the control of Darth Sidious" (paraphrased), which Palp=Sid fans use as evidence that Sidious = Chancellor Palpatine and pro-cloners usually come up with some other explanation for, such as "sidious has a lot of senators under his influence, and as such controls the senate". Anyway, I thought it was interesting that after Dooku tells Obi-Wan that the senate is under the control of the senate, we are soon treated to a senate scene of Palpatine receiving emergency powers and creating a grand army of the republic. Perhaps it was meant to be misleading, in favor of the pro-cloners, but I definitely don't think it was a coincidence that we got to see Palpatine leading the senate with hundreds of senators applauding him shortly after Dooku's speach to Obi-Wan.
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Sometimey Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:05pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/9/02 2:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sometimey
	In reality, it seemed to me that it was Vader's idea to turn Luke in the first place. I think like many megalomaniacs, the Emperor liked the idea and then convinced himself that it was his own idea. Secondly, Luke knew that Vader and the Emperor were two different people. So if Luke gave his loyalty to Vader, he could choose to follow the Emperor because Vader would be just like a recruiter. But thirdly, Vader made it clear to Luke from the start that he wanted Luke to join him so they could destroy the emperor. Vader was no puppet clone. Palpatine is supposed to be a puppet clone. Then if Palpatine is serving as a recruiter, Sidious could not get away with killing him if Anakin knew. The only way this works is if Anakin does not ever find out they are different. I don't see how that could be, but that's just my opinion. Since he is being deceptive about who he is, unlike with Luke, Sidious should be the one to turn Anakin.
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Maverick1115 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:06pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	SOMETIMEY: I agree with everything you said, it is vital and it is huge. Palpatine knows way too much about the force in that scene to be a clone. And like you said, if he were a clone why would Anakin want to join Sidious when Sidious would have to kill Palp, especially since Palp is the one Anakin likes? And one would also think that Anakin would be able to tell that Sidious was someone else if he killed Palp and took over. He may not physically be able to tell, but just hanging around him he would, at least I would hope, after all Palp is the one he likes so much. I also wanted to know if you paid attention to the scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan argue outside of Padme's bedroom. It's interesting because Anakin is defending Palpatine to Obi-Wan in this scene. I find that odd if Palpatine is simply a clone. I just think it would be wierd if all this time Anakin was getting close to the clone, that if all this time the clone would be the one who seduced him and turned him to the darkside. In the OT, Obi-Wan talks about how the Emperor seduced Anakin and turned him into Vadar, but if the clone thing held true we would always say "No, it wasn't the Emperor, it was his clone who turned him." To me that is absurd, but then again who knows.
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Sometimey Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:13pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Maverick1115, thank you, and I realize these are points you have tried to make before. I remember the scene between Obi-Wan and Anakin and I thought that that was just more icing on the cake. Palpatine is clearly getting to Anakin. I'm thinking that if Palpatine is a clone, then Sidious' intentions must be for Palpatine to bring Anakin to him at some point in time, the way Vader does with Luke and the Emperor. It is too risky if not impossible for Palpatine to turn Anakin (how could he anyway, not knowing the force) and then for Sidious to kill him and take over. But if that is Sidious' intention, then why go through Palpatine to this extent? Again, I do not think he will have enough time to turn Anakin in Episode 3. On top of that, as you said, when Sidious does kill Palpatine, Anakin would not like that at all . It just doesn't make sense for Palpatine to be the one to turn Anakin if he isn't Sidious. Not to me anyway.
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BobaFrank Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:17pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Palpatine IS Sidous. GL said so. Bottomline, end of discussion. The clone business is ridiculous. -----signature----- "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." -Yoda TPM "May the Force Be with You." "One Nation Under GOD." "I want to come with you to Alderaan and become a Jedi like my father." "I am a Jedi. Like my father before me."
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Sometimey Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:25pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Sorry, I need to get my own thoughts in order. It is clear that Palpatine is befriending Anakin, stroking his ego and gaining his trust. IF PALPATINE IS SIDIOUS: Then it makes a lot of sense for him to do this if he wants Anakin as his right-hand man. As a Sith, he recognizes Anakin's potential and wants to use it to destroy the Jedi. Vader tried to use his relationship as Luke's father to gain Luke's loyalty. Palpatine will try to use his relationship as Anakin's friend (and mentor!) to gain Anakin's loyalty. IF PALPATINE IS A CLONE DOING SIDIOUS' BIDDING: Then what is Sidious doing? 1. If he intends for Anakin to meet him at some point and know who he is, then like Dooku and Maul, he would have gone after Anakin himself, directly. He would not risk his clone screwing it up. And if his clone is successful in gaining Anakin's loyalty, killing the clone would be a surefire way to kill the loyalty as well. This is compounded by the fact that since Sidious hasn't met Anakin yet, he will not have much time to gain his loyalty. Now of course, the Emperor didn't know Luke for very long either but he tried to turn him. The difference is that Darth Vader was powerful in the force and Luke could fight him as an adversary, they weren't friends. Palpatine the clone is not powerful in the force and he is Anakin's friend. Why would Anakin kill him? And if Anakin doesn't kill him, why would he stand by as Sidious does? 2. If Sidious intends to pull the wool over Anakin's eyes and take Palpatine's place, again, he is entrusting something too important to a clone. Why not skip Palpatine altogether and gain Anakin's loyalty directly, the way he did with his other apprentices? Also, surely Anakin would know that this new person with all of these Sith powers is not his friend, the chancellor from Naboo. After all, this new guy is too tall . IF PALPATINE AND SIDIOUS ARE TWINS LIKE ROMULUS AND REMUS: 1. Same problem, Sidious shouldn't be able to deceive Anakin. Also, Palpatine wouldn't be so dumb if he were a twin.
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:39pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	BobaFrank, You are disqualified for REDUNDANCY! Read posts 1 and 2 of page 1. (Gads, the power, it's exhilirating. lol)
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Darth-Solo Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:44pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	This has probably already been mentioned, but if you read the back of TPM vhs box, it clearly states that Palpatine is the Emperor.
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BobaFrank Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/9/02 2:49pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Undomiel, I read the post and still stick by my comment. The Key Grip saying Palpatine and Sidious are different heights means nothing. David Prowse and Hayden C. are different heights does that mean neither are DV? My problem with every thread that has debated this and there has been many is that they continue to ignore what GL said, and that is simply that Sidious and Palpatine are the SAME. -----signature----- "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." -Yoda TPM "May the Force Be with You." "One Nation Under GOD." "I want to come with you to Alderaan and become a Jedi like my father." "I am a Jedi. Like my father before me."
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Maverick1115 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 3:18pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	SOLO: Yeah it does. I have brought it up about 15 times, but the pro-cloners keep trying to argue that it only says the name Palpatine becomes Emperor and therefore Sidious could still kill Palp and just take his name so the box would hold true. It's a lame excuse.
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Sometimey Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 3:32pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Maverick1115, not only does that seem lame, but it would make the box deceptive. I know this has been brought up before (maybe by you?) but I don't recall there being an answer. The back of the TPM box is telling us what certain people we know from the OT are doing during the time of TPM. Here is the passage: "Set thirty years before the original STAR WARS film, Episode I introduces young Anakin Skywalker, a boy with special powers, unaware that the journey he is beginning will transform him into the evil Darth Vader." So, we know what's up with Darth Vader. To continue: "Obi-Wan Kenobi, the wise old Jedi from the original series, is a determined young apprentice" Oh, that's what Obi-Wan was up to. To finish the SAME SENTENCE: "AND PALPATINE, WELL KNOWN AS THE EVIL EMPEROR, IS AN AMBITIOUS SENATOR IN THE GALACTIC REPUBLIC." caps mine Put the sentence together and it is telling us what Obi-Wan was up to and what the evil emperor was up to. BUT, if it just referring to the name, then the evil emperor was not ever an ambitious senator in the republic. Sidious was not a senator! So if Sidious is the evil Emperor, whether he stole Palpatine's name or not, he wasn't a senator. So the sentence would be a lie.
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Darth-Solo Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 3:41pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Well, there it is in black and white. Palpatine IS the Emperor/Sidious. I don't think it can be debated,but I'm sure someone will disagree.
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 3:53pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	BobaFrank, Ah but you see, the rules of this thread are you must make original commentary on the existing topics which have already been covered as listed in posts 1 and 2 on page 1. In other words, to avoid hearing people say the same things you just did (which, by the way, happens all the time) we are requesting that you formulate an argument for your reasoning rather than simply saying "Palp=Sidious, end of story." That's a senseless argument. It proves nothing, it doesn't add any fiber to the debate, it's repetitive, it's infuriating and it's redundant redundant, re-re-re-redundant.
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PLO_KOON_DUDE Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/9/02 4:00pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread*
	Hey boba maybe anikan(hayden) GROWS B4 HE BECOMES DV EH BUT SIDIOUS AND PALPATINE ARE TWO PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME SO IF THEY ARENT THE SAME HEIGHT AT THE SAME TIME THEN SOMETHING IS UP AND PLEEEEESE SOMEONE GIVE ME A QUOTE OF GEORGE LUCAS SAYING SIOIUS IS PLAPTINE THAT COULD AFFECT MY OPINION GOSH COME ONE PEOPEL there im done........jeeeeeese -----signature----- Luke-, I am your cousin's neice's sister-in-law's granma's brother who lives nextdoor to the waitress who surved you your hamburger last Monday! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mmmmmmmmmm Pistol Whip
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BobaFrank Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/9/02 4:09pm Subject: RE: *The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread* - Date Edited: 6/9/02 4:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BobaFrank
	Since when did GL's word not hold water in the SW universe? Where would SW be without GL? Why do people believe they know more about the SW universe than GL? The SW universe in complicated but yet straightforward. GL stated Palpatine is Sidious so people wouldn't have to debate. It's that simple. As far as being redundant, maybe you all could speak for yourselves. -----signature----- "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." -Yoda TPM "May the Force Be with You." "One Nation Under GOD." "I want to come with you to Alderaan and become a Jedi like my father." "I am a Jedi. Like my father before me."
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