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Author Topic: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
Grizham1  259 posts
Registered: Jun '01
13880_Ewok
Date Posted: 12/27/02 9:43am Subject: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
Listening to the commentary for Attack of the Clones Lucas states the following sometime around the Jango/Obi fight, 'You have to remember that these movies (star wars) are really just ment to be kind of serial like movies from the 30's.' That quote isn't word for word or anything, it's merely paraphrasing.

With that in mind it's fitting to assume that the original star wars movies were all written that way, that is to be serials or just Flash Gordon remakes essentially. If Lucas had said that the new set of movies were just based on serials I wouldn't have a problem with this admission on his part, but the fact is they aren't. The original movies are based on The Hidden Fortress, Seven Samurai, Dune, Lord of the Rings, Arthurian Legend, Flash Gordon, etc. The acting in the first three movies is in some places campy or serial like, but for the most part it is certainly not.

So What does all this mean? It means in one word---- lazy. With all of Lucas enegry seemingly concentrated on making the movies groundbreaking in terms of special effects wizardry that can be sold to other movie makers to make ILM get bigger/better which equals more money. That's fine, I would do exactly the same in this position. It's like the story has been cut down to just being serials now, all of the old influences are gone from the new stories, the only influence left is the Flash Gordon one. Again it's easier to write a story based on serials than it is to write one based on classic literature, myths, and Jospeh Campbell-esque new age beliefs.

Finally, now think hard, when is the last time anyone has seen a serial from the 30's 50's era? I think the last time I saw one was during 3 am on a Saturday night, there's a reason it was on at 3 am, it sucked. The acting was awful, the script awful, the editing awful, well you get the idea. It was the Blob I think, you know the big jelly mold that eats everything in it's path. Moving along the first three starwars movies only took the action element/special effects element from these serials, not the bad acting or script writing. With The Phantom Menace and to a lesser extent Attack of the Clones nearly all of both are get their chief influneces from serials both the good and the bad.

Lucas has admitted that the acting/dialogue in the last two movies is serial like, in other words it's awful. No one but Lucas could have made serials, the only reason he can is because he's living off past success. Some people like serials, most people like Star Wars, there's money to be made here, so he makes it. But I believe that Attack of the Clones made less than any other Star Wars movie before it (not sure though), maybe the Star Wars name is getting a bad reputation because it's just serial like now. What would it hurt to hire a great script writer to bang out a killer script like the one seen in Empire? It wouldn't hurt anything, but the path of the dark side is easier more seductive, maybe George needs to take a long look in the mirror and ask himself if he's taking the easy way out here and not doing the legacy he's created justice.

 

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I Don't Like Sand
Ben Affleck should have played Anakin
Sarah Michelle Gellar for Padme
If you think to hard, your head may explode...
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ST-TPM-ASF-TNE  18584 posts
Title: Moderator Emeritus
 Registered: Jun '01
7951_Ewan McGregor
Date Posted: 12/27/02 9:46am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
The OT had the same serial style the PT has in terms of acting and dialogue. Nothing has changed.

 

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rose Angela rose
Why so serious?
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Durwood  5267 posts
Registered: May '02
6090_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 12/27/02 9:53am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
And yet Star Wars continues to be highly successful. Meditate on this I will.

 

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"[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they
think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should
have it my way." -George Lucas
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DamonD  14914 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Nov '02
14548_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/27/02 10:09am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
I hate to tell you this, but Lucas wrote almost of the ESB script himself. It's his baby, he's free to do what he likes with it.

If you don't like the PT, you would've hated the OT if they were released now. Same style of acting, same style of dialogue, but the effects are worse. I love SW as much as anyone, but I don't let 20+ years' worth of nostalgia blind me to the realities of all the SW films.

You've posting your opinion, I've replied with mine. Nothing personal.

 

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I love all 6 Star Wars films. Live with it.
Member of FIGS, the Fantastic Ian (McDiarmid) Gushers Society.
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Grizham1  259 posts
Registered: Jun '01
13880_Ewok
Date Posted: 12/27/02 10:30am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
A New Hope had numerous oscar nominations under it's belt, including one for Best Supporting Actor and one for the director or screenplay maybe both I don't recall, but the point is, these new movies have been nominated for the opposite type of awards, hardly the same kind of acting.

Star Wars is still a success for lots of reasons, the effects are great, old fans that like the new movies want to see more, old fans that don't like the new movies hope the next one may just be different so they see them, casual moviegoers like brainless roller coaster rides sometimes, and kids love the movies.

As for Lucas writing the script for Empire, I though Leigh Brackett and Lawerence Kasadan were the one's that got credit for writing the script, not Lucas. As for hating the ot now if it were released today, the effects would be up to date and the story would be the same, then I'd would love it like I still do. Effects don't make a good movie though, the story does, and the orignial movies use timeless themes for their basis of a story, hence I would love them just as much today as I did when I first saw them as a child.

 

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I Don't Like Sand
Ben Affleck should have played Anakin
Sarah Michelle Gellar for Padme
If you think to hard, your head may explode...
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SkywalkerChild  76 posts
Registered: Dec '02
6129_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/27/02 10:31am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
Again it's easier to write a story based on serials than it is to write one based on classic literature, myths, and Jospeh Campbell-esque new age beliefs.

I'm sorry...but the beauty of Star Wars is that it is a combination of the serial and Joesph Cambell. Luke and Anakin are both your typical "Hero" only Anakin slowly changes to the "Tragic Hero" of Shakespeare while Luke maintains the true "hero's journey" as described by Campbell.

Skywalker Child

 

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Durwood  5267 posts
Registered: May '02
6090_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 12/27/02 10:40am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
All I know is that the criticism of Star Wars has changed little over the years. You can find reviews of the originals that call them mindless effects shows with bad acting and thin stories, to which I say, the more things change the more they stay the same.

And to be honest, it seems that Lucas' critics are far more obsessed with special effects than he.

 

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"[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they
think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should
have it my way." -George Lucas
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DarthHomer  5482 posts
Registered: Apr '00
6634_Darth Homer
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:32am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
"Finally, now think hard, when is the last time anyone has seen a serial from the 30's 50's era? I think the last time I saw one was during 3 am on a Saturday night, there's a reason it was on at 3 am, it sucked. The acting was awful, the script awful, the editing awful, well you get the idea. It was the Blob I think, you know the big jelly mold that eats everything in it's path."

The Blob wasn't a serial, it was a B movie. Star Wars is based on the Saturday Matinee shorts that used to play before the main feature in movie theaters, and that always ended with a cliffhanger. In many ways, AOTC is actually the closest to that formula of all the Star Wars films. You could put a "To be Continued" after the scene where the Jedi are about to be killed by Battle Droids, or where Anakin and Obi-Wan are at Dooku's mercy and make the whole film into a series of cliffhanger shorts.

I think Lucas is trying to emulate the spirit of adventure in those old films, rather than the bad dialogue and acting. Obviously, some bad dialogue and acting has creeped into the prequels, but maybe that's just an homage wink

 

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DrEvazan  2352 posts
Registered: Jun '02
6609_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:41am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason............... - Date Edited: 12/27/02 11:49am (1 edits total) Edited By: DrEvazan
this thread made me think of a good title for the next installment in the star wars "serial": Return Of The Excuses.

"people always thought star wars was bad"

"its supposed to be that way, thats what george intended"

"its an homage to bad movies so thats why its bad"

same excuses, different thread.

 

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no original OT on DVD?
Boycott Episode III!
skull monkey skull monkey skull
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Durwood  5267 posts
Registered: May '02
6090_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:45am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason............... - Date Edited: 12/27/02 11:48am (2 edits total) Edited By: Durwood
To be quite honest, I am a great fan of "cliff hanger" seriels, with the television series Doctor Who being my all time favorite (each story was told via multiple half-hour episodes, with each one ending in a cliff hanger). I also adore the old Flash Gordan and Buck Rogers shorts. Not coincidentally, these used to come on after Doctor Who which I used to watch every Saturday night throughout junior high and high school and it was almost always the highlight of my week, so to imply that no self-respecting modern person could enjoy such "campy" cinema as Star Wars is a bit elitist, don't you think?

Edit: Hey, good ol' Duck and Run is back! I was wondering where you'd run off to! "Seeing you brings warm feelings to my heart." (Isn't it ironic that meeting on old nemesis, however inept, is almost more fun than meeting an old friend?)

 

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"[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they
think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should
have it my way." -George Lucas
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RevengeofDahveed  279 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6870_Watto
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:48am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason............... - Date Edited: 12/27/02 11:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: RevengeofDahveed
I often scratch my head when people say "nothing has changed" from the OT to the PT.

I guess what the mean to say is "nothing has changed EXCEPT the PT has a totally different cast, different crew, different screenwriters, different producers, different FX people and techniques, etc.. And of course theres the fact that the OT movies were concluded nearly 20 years ago."

But other than that, the OT and PT movies are EXACTLY the same, which is not surprising since as i pointed out above the circumstances of its production are the same. well give or take.

seriously though, the OT and PT are utterly distinct from each other of course, and theres no reason to think of this as a drawback. theres absolutely no reason to expect scifi/fantasy movies made in the late 70's (ANH and ESB anyway)to NOT be distinct from those made today.

oh and to remain somewhat on-topic, cliffhanger serials like Flash Gordon were terrible then. why its a point of pride for GL to refer to them as influences (whether they are or not) when no one who cares about SW was even born (or their parents even) when they were popular is a bit strange.

 
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DrEvazan  2352 posts
Registered: Jun '02
6609_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:52am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
Durwood, master of the straw man argument. i hardly had to wait five minutes before you began to attack the messenger rather than the message.

any more excuses for why the PT is so darn awful?

 

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no original OT on DVD?
Boycott Episode III!
skull monkey skull monkey skull
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Durwood  5267 posts
Registered: May '02
6090_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:52am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
I see that Dahveed is using the straw man tactic of literal interpretation to formulate a rebuttal. I'll only point out, as if clarification is really needed, that while the techniques and personel have changed over the years, the intent of Star Wars has remained unchanged. The same is true of the criticism, apparently.

 

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"[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they
think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should
have it my way." -George Lucas
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Durwood  5267 posts
Registered: May '02
6090_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:53am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
any more excuses for why the PT is so darn awful?

Of course you realize this is begging the question.

 

-----signature-----
"[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they
think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should
have it my way." -George Lucas
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RevengeofDahveed  279 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6870_Watto
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:55am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason............... - Date Edited: 12/27/02 12:00pm (2 edits total) Edited By: RevengeofDahveed
the intent? you mean to entertain? to make money? what INTENT are you referring to? and what makes this intent distinct from any other effects-laden blockbuster movie?

oh and read my previous edit.

and i was sort of responding to ST's first earlier post, though ive heard this rather odd assertion many times on the board.

also, werent the "acting and dialogue" (along with production value)the worst parts of the old serials? why in gods name would u attempt to duplicate or adapt this "style"? (that word makes me laugh since the "style" of those serials was a result of d-grade actors, hack writers, and very low budgets)

 
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Ardens_Furore  2423 posts
Registered: May '01
Date Posted: 12/27/02 11:57am Subject: RE: Serial movie making died long ago for a reason...............
If you think about it more, you can see that the Joseph Campbell influences of mythology are still there in the PT.

 
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