Discussion in 'Literature' started by TypoCelchu, Oct 30, 2012.
Ah, we're back to fandom vs consumerism!
No it's not. Marvel was integrated in EU and is mentioned. Do you even EU?
Do you even EU? Ha, I love it.
I'm pretty sure I've made my disdain for "canon levels" known elsewhere, so I won't tread old ground. All I'll say is that if the movies do bulldoze the EU, I'll view it as a separate continuity, but not a superior continuity. This generation is way too caught up in the idea that film and television are superior mediums to books and comics; all of these mediums have distinct strengths and weaknesses. The Walking Dead is a great recent example; the TV show plays to its mediums strength, and many things are improved from the comic. On the other hand, many of the greatest scenes, characterizations and themes are utterly lost in the adaptation, because they simply work better in comics.
As far as I'm concerned, once the movies come out, they'll just be another interpretation on what happens to the characters from the Original Trilogy (and as I've also said elsewhere, if there's one area in Star Wars that arguably deserves different artistic interpretations, it's what happens to the characters that are the heart of Star Wars). Though it's what many would consider an insignificant difference, I sincerely hope that the existing EU will not be handwaved as "non-canon", but "canon 2", or something similar. Acknowledge the fact that the Thrawn Trilogy, NJO, and even LOTF/FOTJ are valid possible continuations of the saga, and indeed were once the official continuation.
I share some of Obi-Wan21's excitement, but I'm not excited at the prospect of discarding the old canon and getting a new one; I'm excited at the prospect of seeing a new perspective on the universe. We've seen what the books and comics can do with the future of Luke, Han and Leia, let's see what film can do.
The Marvel comics ARE an alternate universe to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And yes, I know that's the beast of comics, but I wouldn't be surprised if Disney considered this large mess the same when thinking about Star Wars. Do I even EU? What does that even mean, is that a serious question? Will it validate something if I didn't or did? That's irrelevant to this direct topic, and see no reason to dignify that with a response.
I am, quite frankly, excited at the prospect of post-ROTJ EU being discarded, if only because of the errors and mistakes I feel has been made. Mileage may vary on opinions about the EU, and that's fine. You can like what you wish, but I just don't feel that Episode VII should be bogged down by decades of continuity (some of which I don't even consider to be good).
I am a cinephile, though. So I do hold the films and their rights in higher regard. Star Wars began as a film, and any sequels have rights and freedoms to abandon any canon conceived elsewhere.
Your EU and books will all still exist, and really, canon is mostly up to the individual anyway, so what does it really matter? You have your personal Star Wars universe, and I have mine.
@ What if the early "leak" was correct and the ST is set >50+ ABY? Also remember what Mark Hamill said that GL told him -- about coming back at 60+! You are, I think, speculating wildly ahead of your data!
It's all speculation. I'm speculating on a set of rumors that tickle my fancy. Even if it is set further, whatever those films set in stone, like if Chewbacca ended up being alive, etc. could change the course of the current EU climate. My data's fine, thanks though.
No need for pity, I'm super excited.
That's actually a common misconception, most often made by those who haven't read the series. I've read all of the Marvel issues, and while there is a line here and there that might not jive with other things (which can be said about almost every EU source), throughout the series there is a grand total of one issue that can't be considered canon, and that's because Janson dies. Even that has been retconned as a story Wedge tells new recruits.
Though theoretically the Marvel series is a lower level of canon, in reality it's been very well integrated. In fact, as recent as January 1st, 2013, a Marvel issue has been used; Timothy Zahn's Scoundrels builds upon Han getting his reward money stolen by pirates.
Yes, the major weakness of a shared universe is the fact that much of it, perhaps even the majority (depending on how cynical your perspective is) won't be very good. That said, that's not something that's restricted to the EU. I've come to enjoy the prequels for what they are, but objectively speaking they're not very well made films. The only thing they have truly going for them are the special effects and some of the broader ideas; the characters themselves, however, are paper thin, almost everyone gives a bad performance (even from actors who are known to be talented elsewhere), there are numerous structural problems, etc. Despite the quality of the PT, however, they're part of the universe, and indeed have led to many great things.
My point is, if we're going to cherry pick based on quality, the only reason the films are exempt is because they have George Lucas' name on it, and the ST won't even have that. The only difference between the coming films and the EU is that they have a higher budget.
Despite that, though, I do agree that the sequel trilogy should be its own story. The status quo of LOTF/FOTJ is... not something I want to see continued on the big screen. I think there really just needs to be an ending written for this version of the post-ROTJ EU.
I'm not talking about Marvel SW, Marvel Heroes, rather. Disney, as a business, could see the EU like they see Marvel Studio's own universe; a stable of stories and characters that has no barring on their film series, but ripe for cherry picking. Which is an entirely possible model.
The PT is Star Wars, but that argument is neither here nor there. You can tell both trilogies come from the same man, they aren't that different. But they're all fun. I'm not here to argue that, though. I love 'em all, even when all six have flaws. Beyond that, while my personal tastes allow for the easy detachment of losing decades of stories, that we can all still own and enjoy if we want to, the larger argument is the films being shackled to these events. And I think that's unfair.
If Disney and LFL want to have Chewbacca alive, go for it, if they want Luke to have an only child and it be a daughter, go for it. If Han and Leia don't have Jacen and Jaina, why not. I am comfortable with whatever they choose, as long as it allows for the best possible story.
I really wouldn't characterize the scatter-shot of various Marvel movies as a "universe of stories" - but in any case, the point is that the original Marvel Universe - in existence since 1961 - still rolls on without change.
Maybe my sig quote can help you on that score. Again, if LFL doesn't feel any lessons were learned in the post-ROTJ era, that's fine. But if you're trying to sell the destruction of the EU as something to celebrate, you're probably in the wrong forum.
Well, I'm not locked out of the forum, and I do love the EU, but I'm neither hung up on it or in love with all of its decisions. This universe can still exist in novels, and maybe it still will, but the films should be allowed to be their own separate beast. If the movie contradicts major points of EU canon, then they should just roll with it and not try to fix them and make things awkward. But, see, I find that even less likely. Would two universe exist at that point, novels that tied into the film, and novels that kept the original universe going? Or would they simply obliterate the old guard, as it was. A purge if I ever saw one, but a likely one.
I love Zahn's post-ROTJ work. I even love some of the stand alone novels, when they're actually published, but mistakes have been made, for me, and I think this is a great opportunity to correct them. That is why I hope those rumors turn out to be true. I also want Chewbacca back. And the mess with Jacen and Jaina to have never happened.
@ Oh wait, sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were saying the Marvel Star Wars comics are an alternate reality to the rest of the EU, which I see a lot. My bad.
Also: I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Chewie dies again in the new trilogy. I'd laugh and laugh
Oh I would hate that. Bringing back Chewie, who I loved since I was a kid, just to kill him again. No, I think they're more likely to kill Han if they manage to get Ford back. Finally give him the send off he's always asked for. I bet it'd be in his contract. lol
That doesn't exactly strike me as "I do love EU". But you do realize that the EU exists because of Zahn? And LFL? That they gave Zahn a ton of material from the (relatively) obscure Star Wars RPG to use, which he initially did not wish to do, but changed his mind when he realized he had been given a detailed fleshing-out of the Star Wars universe that the movies didn't? And as I've been pointing out, Star Wars wasn't that interesting a property at that time, what with a pair of clunky living action TV movies and two cartoons, and a bizarre focus on one of the least interesting parts of the OT.
You seem to think that continuity and canon is an impediment to storytelling. It's not. Having a consistent background to your universe is the hallmark of good storytelling - as fans of LOTR, or Game of Thones can attest. A shared universe is trickier to manage, but just requires someone to keep track for everyone else (for Marvel, it was originally Mark Grunewald; for Star Wars, it's Leland Chee). It's worth it, in my book. If all you have is a set of vague guidelines and a few main characters but constantly fluctuating elements, you're essentially writing fan fiction. And that's available free on the Internet.
Be that as it may, choices made in the EU feel like fan fiction at this point. And right now, their decisions would be an impediment, and that's where we differ. I feel as though the choices they've made, no one should be forced to lie in it with them. And I certainly don't want to. LFL has a consistent background, they have the films. The books existed just fine, they'll always exist, but this film needs to finally make clear that we're dealing with two separate universes at that point. If it doesn't fine, it won't kill me. If it does, it means I'll hopefully get Chewbacca in movies again, and a lone daughter of Skywalker. And maybe Luke will have a wife that wasn't killed in an awful event of badly constructed novels.
They're movies too though
Evidence that people are less into reading these days.
And it's called the EU.
Here's something that I'd be interested in the statistics of...
How many of you who don't want a reboot prefer the OT?
Vice versa, how many who do want a reboot prefer the PT?
Because I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correlation there. As the ST won't be the OT. But nor will it be the PT.
The ST will be for the Twilight generation.
(On a separate point, the ST will also be for the era of equal opportunities, so just because Luke might have daughter in the film doesn't mean anyone should be ruling out Ben didn't exist... this is the twenty-first century, people, think gender change )
The problem here is all those decisions were made by LFL! You may not like it, I may not like it but that's the way it is.
The other element is that of course fans can be more consumerist in their outlook, but if a large amount of existing EU fans do that, it is questionable how many fans will actually switch their money over to the EU. As a fan? They'll buy it because that's the essence of being a fan. As a consumer? A far more critical evaluation is likely to be done: On what basis is this being sold to me? What evidence is there that the basis given is genuine? At that point, they look at the previous characterisation of the EU, note it's been changed, concludes it can be changed again, therefore the basis is false, therefore money is best spent on something more deserving! To counter this likely effect, a very effective marketing campaign aimed at new customers will be needed, until they too rumble the game for what it is.
That said, I don't see the idea of the writers of the ST being limited by the EU to have any credibility, as to be limited by the EU the writers would have to know of it! I am highly sceptical that that is so.
Hard to say for me. I don't necessarily want a reboot, but I accept it's probably going to happen. As for the movies, I much prefer the OT; I won't pretend they're flawless, but they're much better made films than the prequels.
The danger I see for people who prefer the OT is that the ST will just be another PT let down for them.
If TPM proved how much culture had changed in twenty years (yay! sparkly special effects!) then I'm fully expecting the ST to show that, once again, two decades on culture has completely changed.
Forget your Pod Race, this time we'll be seeing Luke Jr. competing in the Tatooine X Factor song contest.
TOR is one of the clearest examples of this, too. All that money, all that publicity, all that marketing hype... and it was still a flop. With all its attempts to reboot the era, to not be shackled by KOTOR and KOTOR2's stories, to not worry about the EU's existing take on the artistic designs or history of the Sith Empire that far in the past... it was still a flop.
Apart from the hardcore fans who continue to play it because they love Star Wars and love the story, all those with just a casual interest have disappeared, gone back to WOW or switched to F2P. It is actually amazing how much EU talk I read in General Chat, not from completionist buffs like this forum, but just casual fans, with a fleeting interest, who enjoy arguing who was the greatest Sith Lord, Revan, Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Malgus.
Those are the only people who still seem to be subscribers. The rest, like you say Ben, have just taken their money elsewhere.
Like TOR, for all its money, for all its publicity, for all the posters with the logo STAR WARS across the top, roll the dice wrong and EP7 will just be another summer blockbuster and forgotten the moment the next blockbuster comes out. Does that mean it won't be a good film? No, it simply means this isn't the 80s anymore and kids have so many different activities today that they won't need to latch onto that one awesome movie the way they used to.
This is where Disney have actually been sensible with Marvel though as they've realised Marvel's reliable fanbase are older, so the films have grown up and the stories have acknowledged what those older fans have been wanting to see on the big screen.