Lit Diversity Special: Goran and Medrit

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Feb 12, 2013.

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IF YOU HAVE READ LOTF: At what point did you realize that Goran and Medrit were a gay couple?

Poll closed Feb 26, 2013.
During Sacrifice - Medrit's first appearance 8 vote(s) 20.5%
During Revelation - Medrit's second appearance 8 vote(s) 20.5%
Heard about it elsewhere after having finished both books 14 vote(s) 35.9%
Wait, Goran and Medrit are gay? 3 vote(s) 7.7%
Heard about it elsewere after finishing the first book but before reading the second 6 vote(s) 15.4%
  1. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Honestly, it's not surprising. There are presently 16 votes in the two 'found it out somewhere else' categories, which is greater than the 15 saying they figured it out after reading one or both of the books. That means less than half of readers picked up on this particular detail on their own, so there should be people who haven't discussed this particular aspect on this or some other board or site stumbling across the knowledge for the first time.

    I'd be very interested in a close reading of the two novels to see if any thing in Sacrifice or Revelation specifically states that Goran and Medrit are married, because if there isn't, if it's only in Practical Man, then Traviss really did dodge the issue, because somewhat unusual living arrangements and plenty of chummy closeness are all over the Mandolorian characters in her books. I'd do it myself, but I'm simply not masochistic enough to pick anything from LotF up again.
  2. Mazzic Force Ghost

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    Oops. I was trigger happy. I voted "Heard about it elsewere after finishing the first book but before reading the second" but I never read Sacrifice all the way through. I heard about Goran and Medrit being gay here on TF.net's boards, and to be honest was APPALLED....that Mara Jade died in Sacrifice. Haven't read any (chronological) books since.

    Although I did buy Revelation just so I could read more about gay Mandos.
  3. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    The Sacrifice DP lists him as Medrit Beviin. Not sure about Revelation. Their farm is repeatedly described as the "Beviin-Vasur Farm". Medrit's introduction in Sacrifice includes a reference to he and Goran as parents, and a little later Fett repeatedly regards them as a family. No instances of the words "husband" or "spouse" as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 14, 2013
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  4. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Ah thank you. Well, looking at it that way, the trick is, them having the same name and being considered family does not, especially not in the Mandolorian culture as presented by Traviss, imply matrimony. They could easily be relatives running the farm and raising kids together as part of the sort of large rambling clan structure that we see with the Skirata clan and the like. Heck, you could probably even read it as a pair of widowers raising the kids of their deceased, unmentioned former spouses together.

    This may seem far fetched, but gay couples and families still have relatively limited penetration in the popular consciousness, and the way the demographic math actually works out the most common reason for two adult males to live together is not and probably never will be, that they are a gay couple.

    I find it disappointing that the actual setup requires a weird sort of cross-book compatibility, that no work on its own explicitly establishes the pair as a gay couple. Of course it may be that Traviss decided this after the fact, with Practical Man already finished, but it seems like a piece expository material you'd want to be clear about in each new work
  5. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    I didn't check Revelation; there could be something more definitive there.

    Also, note that none of this invalidates the poll data, because A Practical Man came out nine months before Sacrifice. The information was out there, whether or not a given reader had come across it. If they read APM after one or both books, and only then figured it out, that would still qualify as an "elsewhere" response.
  6. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Bump. Results so far:

    -less than one quarter of those polled figured it out upon reading Sacrifice, Medrit's first appearance.

    -less than half found out directly from either book, meaning that most people who read LotF got all the way through it without picking up on the gay relationship (or at least, heard about it somewhere else before finishing).
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 18, 2013
  7. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

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    Mar 26, 2004
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    They're flat out called a "couple" in REVELATION in at least two passages, the first being during the scene where Fett is thawing out Sintas, if that helps in regards to what words are used to describe them and when.

    I have gay friends who fall all over the spectrum, but I know some dislike the current word choices, especially "husband" and "wife", and even spouse is found problematic by some. Most gay couples that I know used "partner", which sadly doesn't carry the same weight, but it's pretty clear from the text that Medrit and Goran are parents and grandparents to the same kids, considered each other's partners, and generally act like a married couple.

    The fact that they're described as a "couple" is something that could be overlooked because it's just a word, and because people weren't really looking for the relationship.
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  8. MistrX Force Ghost

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    Described as a couple at least twice? Now I'm starting to feel rather dumb. First Anarchy Delta, now this.
  9. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

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    Well, besides "couple" they're called partners plenty of times, but as others have pointed out that's a rather tough term to pull anything out from.

    I know my niece (hey, Coop, if the OOU person a character is named for is gay does that mean Ash Jarvee is? ;p [joking]) hates that she has to explain that her "girlfriend" is her romantic girlfriend because society doesn't automatically recognize that as a romantic term if not connected to a man and woman.

    I'm also not sure "boyfriend" is a word that would really be used by Mandalorians. I know younger gay couples who will use it, but most of the older gay couples I know use "partner".

    Couple or partner is about seem like the words an older Mando couple would use, but for readers they're not as definitive, and then there's the fact that in the SWU even heterosexual relationships seem rather chaste.

    Had KT put in an explicit kissing scene or something she'd probably have gotten even more stick for having gay Mandos in.

    When you combine everything else about them...I'm honestly surprised as many people missed it as did. Although I still think it's fair that people just were not looking for it. OTOH, as she says in her OOU FAQ on the subject, they wouldn't have been remarkable on Mandalore. They're just another couple raising kids, the fact that they're the same sex wouldn't be an issue, no more than if one of them were an alien.
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  10. Robimus Force Ghost

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    I was wondering if you were going to adopt that art as your avatar :p
    Last edited by Robimus, Feb 19, 2013
  11. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    I found out by other means, because I refuse to read anything from the post-NJO out of disgust for the depressing direction the universe was taken, so these Mandos aren't really a factor, but they sure didn't help matters.
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Feb 19, 2013
  12. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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  13. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    Star Wars is a fictional universe that is similar to our own universe, but distinctly different, so why does it need to reflect our universe so closely?
  14. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Why are gay people over the line but nobody else? Or are there other groups of people in the real world you don't think should be in SW?
  15. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    I can't think of anybody off of the top of my head, but there are more. The only reason I tolerated it in the Halo short story Dirt is because its a representation of the future.
  16. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

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    Because there's no good reason to pretend people don't exist just because a few unreasonable individuals have an irrational fear or hatred of them?
  17. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Tolerated it as opposed to what? Hunting down the author?

    But I digress--I'd really like to know the other groups of people whose existence you'd prefer to ignore.
  18. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    Well, how often does one come across two lesbians in a story that aren't in a relationship?

    Transsexuals are another group I would rather ignore.
  19. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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    Go ahead and ignore them then. Doesn't mean they shouldn't exist, even in a fictional setting.
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  20. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    So lesbians are okay in pairs if they're not dating each other? Would three or five lesbians be okay, or no more than one? Because it sounds like you're making an argument for more lesbians.

    And which kind of transsexuals? M2F or F2M? What about people who were born hermaphroditic? Are you okay with just excluding voluntary transsexuals from the entire GFFA, or are the biologically intersex out as well?

    Related question: how do you know, say, Garm Bel Iblis isn't a transsexual? Or Piett? Or Ackbar?
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 19, 2013
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  21. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    I was shocked, because I didn't expect it.

    Well, I can see there is no line I can draw that would seem unreasonable, since the Hutts could technically cross such a line.

    I would no longer like those characters, because that isn't who they are. I was extremely irritated when Albus Dumbledore was said to be gay.
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Feb 19, 2013
  22. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    That's a good way to circle back around to the topic--when in the course of your Harry Potter experience did you learn about Dumbledore? Did it only damage your reading from that point on, or did older portions of the story become worse retroactively?

    If the next Essential Characters revealed that Piett was born a woman, would you enjoy ESB less the next time you saw it?
  23. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    After I had read the entire series, of course there isn't anything in the series that specifically stated he was and the only thing that could potentially be evidence is his ambiguous relationship with Gellert Grindelwald, so I kind reacted in a similar manner to how I did to TCW changing things. What am I supposed to do, hate a character I like just because the author says the character is gay? In a similar manner to how I have reacted to TCW changing things.
  24. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    But you do hate TCW. And you've actually read Harry Potter.

    And, wait a second--so you're saying that your fondness for Dumbledore outweighed the later news that he was gay?
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 19, 2013
  25. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    I don't hate TCW, I hate being told double speak.