Lit Episode VII: Was Dark Empire on the right track?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Guy-Gone_Weird, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    Sep 7, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, I'm always really confused at the number of people who seem to assume that Obi, Anni, and Ahsoka all got their memories of the Mortis stuff wiped from their minds at the end. Did those people even watch the episode?

    Or maybe I'm just being a bit mean...maybe they did watch the episode and were just trying to erase the knowledge of it from their own memories.
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  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Because when you have a dude who represents the will of the Force, a chick who represents the light side and a dude who represents the dark side... that's the only level on which it works without being loltarded.

    The beginning and end of the arc make clear that it really did all happen, and that they remember it, that it wasn't just a dream.

    Yeah, but Luke Skywalker remembers chopping Vader's head off and his own face appearing behind the helmet, too. The Mortis episodes were easily understood as another example of that kind of experience, only amped up to eleven and shared by three people.

    I think it's a fairly easy mistake to make, given Anakin is shown that he's gonna become Darth Vader and murder a bunch of people... and clearly doesn't remember any of that. :p
    Last edited by Ulicus, Feb 24, 2013
  3. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    And again, the reason why he doesn't remember that vision but remembers everything else is fairly evident from the episode...
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  4. fett 4 Chosen One

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    I can see the start of E7 now, Force Ghost Anakin shows up to a 60yr old Luke, and goes "My son you must go find the dagger", The twist in the tail is that it's Special Edition Anakin so instead Luke is suspicious wondering who the long haired kid wearing his fathers clothes is :p
  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Yeah, but memory shenanigans were nevertheless featured in the episode and it's a simple matter -- especially when recalling it months later -- for people to misremember the exact ins-and-outs of what went on.

    I mean, I've only seen the thing once, long ago, and I can't remember the end of the episode very clearly at all. Hell, I can't even remember the initial set up... but the BIG moments still pop out, y'know?

    EDIT: It's possible I have just outed myself as someone with a very bad memory....
    Last edited by Ulicus, Feb 25, 2013
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  6. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Anakin is shown the vision by the son, then gets it wiped by his father later.

    Which is a good thing as Anakin's motivation didn't make a lick of sense. Horrified by all the things he will do and determined to stop them coming to pass he will help the evil son escape and be unleashed onto the galaxy instead ! um ok :confused:
    Last edited by fett 4, Feb 25, 2013
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  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That's the dark side for you. He has fallen so completely he doesn't care anymore about what made him fall in the first place. Like when he force choked his own wife in ROTS.

    Hm, did I say so somewhere? Aside from the stuff the father wiped from Anakins mind (And maybe Ahsokas too? I have forgotten) of course they remember.
  8. Riven_JTAC Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 28, 2011
    star 3
    Oh my...

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.
    Last edited by Riven_JTAC, Feb 25, 2013
  9. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Though two groups of Celestials running out strikes we as odd. I'm happier that they've been linked in the prose, not by retcon later on. Four Celestials with a discord is more interesting to me.
  10. darth fluffy Jedi Grand Master

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    Discord? As in MLP: FiM?
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  11. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I just don't like the concept of the balance of the Force being personified in the Ones, and I absolutely hate Abeloth even more.
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Feb 25, 2013
  12. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    A balance, as it seems to be separate from the other balance of the Force?
  13. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    No, I forgot a "the," and the impression I have gotten is the Ones are the balance of the Force.
  14. cthugha Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 24, 2010
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    I just re-read the OP and it got me thinking...

    We know now that the ST will not be "about" Luke. If Hamill and the others don't sign up, they'll be written out of the story; so the main story arc will obviously not be theirs. So "Luke going dark" is not an option, which is a good thing IMO.

    However, the ST could still be similar to DE in a more abstract way, with Luke's character arc in DE applied to the hero/ine of the ST:
    The PT gave us a hero going utterly dark (even though he was finally redeemed).
    The OT gave us a hero resisting the lure of the Dark Side.
    So it would make sense for the ST to show us someone going (mostly) dark (or being dark at the beginning of the movie) and then finding back to the light. In a very basic way, this would mirror Vader's story; but then it could also be more similar to Revan's:

    -- Ep. VII: goes dark because of a perceived necessity, e.g. to fight a huge threat (think Caedus, only better written; this would distinguish the hero from Anakin, who goes dark for ultimately selfish/emotional reasons)
    -- Ep. VIII: we get to watch the protagonist being on the wrong side of history (think the OT from Vader's perspective); at the end he/she comes back to the light (or tries to) but is immediately defeated by the Big Bad
    -- Ep. IX: the protagonist, still recovering from the Dark Side, struggles to defeat the Big Bad without falling again.

    I think this sort of character arc, with all its moral complications and ambiguities, would fare much better with today's audiences than the more mono-directional arcs of the OT or PT.
    Zorrixor likes this.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    Then there's the part about the Son escaping Mortis, which is understood as another example of the Star Trek V kind of experience.
  16. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    I think Abeloth done right could be an effective Star Wars villain. I'll go as far as to say I love the idea, and don't mind the connection with Mortis (haven't not seen the execution for myself). A Lovecraftian cosmic entity that dwarfes the most powerful Force users running around? A villain that should theoretically require cunning and not brute force to defeat? A villain that can challenge, and even defeat Luke Skywalker without having them be a Sith, and therefore contradicting Palpatine's place as most powerful Sith? The blue prints are all there. I haven't read FOTJ yet, so I'm not fit to judge anything, but I can say that having this villain defeated multiple times through the series probably isn't the best way to build credibility. Though considering the exploits of Caedus, creating credible villains might not be the goal...
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 25, 2013
  17. Ghost Chosen One

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    Oct 13, 2003
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    I always took it as a LOST / Smoke Monster reference :p
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  18. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    First time I ever saw a comparison between The Son and the smoke monster.
  19. Ghost Chosen One

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    Goody-good sibling (Daughter=Jacob), overprotective parent who wants to keep their son isolated from the larger world ("Father" in TCW = "Mother" in LOST), etc. :p
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  20. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    I've never seen Star Trek V, I'm afraid to say, so the reference is lost on me.

    I think at the time I interpreted the Son's "escape" to be little more than Anakin being broken to the dark side, and waking up ready to go a-conquering. Or, in the most extreme case, the Son would become Anakin's invisible friend, telling him to burn people and things.

    But I never thought he'd pop out as some kind of entity with a concrete and clear existance of his own.
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  21. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Jun 29, 2003
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    Oh god what if someone figures out how to move the Mortis?
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  22. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
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    If he did escape, I imagine he'd become like Abeloth. He'd troll the galaxy, and be defeated time and time again.
  23. Adrian the Cool Jedi Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    No, Pinkamena Diane Pie.
  24. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

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    Nov 12, 2012
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    I will say, Dark Empire got kicked up several notches when in Sith it was revealed that Palpy was in cahoots with his old master to find out the secret to eternal life. That was really cool. Apparently, when Dark Empire was first pitched, it was a different guy running around in a Darth Vader suit. Lucas said change it to the Emperor reborn. It's quite possible he always liked that idea and tossed in a reference to it into "Sith". Which is why Palpy's method of cloning in Dark Empire is kinda-coming-back-from-the-dead-but-not-really, it was the best he could do, some awkward, half-science / half-dark side power distorted amalgamation of resurrection. I can't see Plapy coming back for the ST, he already had his own Lucas-approved resurrection story, but the passing reference to Plageuis in "Sith" does kinda stick out as possibly layering in a baddie for the ST.
  25. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    You're lucky. Star Trek V was pretty awful. However the ones are actual beings, before they all died, not entities. I do wonder what happened to the real Mother before Abeloth came along.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Feb 25, 2013