Lit Only Sith Deal in Absolutes?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Slowpokeking, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I think old Jedi are more extreme than Sith, Sith believes Jedi can be turned, they were firstly dark jedi, they also accepted former jedi Kun, Kaan, Krayt as their leader.
  2. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    hypocrites, the bunch of them.
    Palpatine was right, there isn't that much difference between Jedi/Sith
    Can't we just get along?
  3. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    Yeah the PT Jedi are super-inflexible. They're as much to blame for Anakin's fall as Palpatine and Anakin himself.
  4. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    In the Jedi's defense, I'd assume that the quote means that the Sith only classify people as either asset or threat, without regard for anyone with motivations that don't mesh with Sith philosophy.

    But Lucas ain't good at dialogue and/or Obi-Wan's kind of an idiot so it doesn't get across well.
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Uh, guys, have you considered that Kenobi was probably just lying?


    Because he does that a lot.
  6. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    He also declares that Palpatine is evil so it's not only Sith who deal in absolutes
    darth fluffy likes this.
  7. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    ZING!
  8. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    Except that Palpatine, after all the evidence we have, really is...
    is...
    a brilliant singer. That's what I was going to say.

    But I suddenly had a bad feeling that in Episode VII Obi-Wan's ghost is going to say something like this: "Why didn't I tell you that Han is your brother? Well, from a certain point of view..."

    The Jedi order during the Fall was really inflexible, and I had a thread on temp forums in which I blamed Yoda for everything. He had been the leader of the order for how many centuries, and half of the Council during the prequels were his former apprentices or grandapprentices. Not much room for differing opinions there, whereas every Banite Sith Master could change the Sith teachings as he choose.
    Zane the Reaper likes this.
  9. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    I've come to interpret that particular line as 'only a Sith is completely certain.' The Force has a dark side and a light side, there are actions that hew in one direction only, but a Jedi can never truly know what those actions are. If you believe what you're doing is absolutely the right course of action, the only right course of action, then actually you're probably wrong and hearing the dark side instead.

    Anakin falls because he is completely certain that only Palpatine can save Padme. He has rejected every other possibility without even trying any of them.

    The Jedi who never doubts, who never questions his own righteousness, who always is certain he has the solution and no one else does, that Jedi is on a path to the dark side. Anakin Skywalker, Jorus C'Baoth, Jacen Solo, and many more, all succumbed to the siren song of their own certainty.

    Now, Obi-Wan's little line exists in bad context. The Jedi Order he represented had in fact become extremely dogmatic and was in its own way really quite corrupt. I agree with @ that the long tenure of Yoda at the top was a problem, it made the order far too inflexible, practically unable to see any solution outside of Yoda's personal vision.
  10. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    Seems to me the Jedi were pretty "certain" that attachments lead to the dark side. While Anakin's attachments may have contributed to his fall, I think the Jedi inflexibility in this is suspect. The way I "read" the prequels, the Jedi fail because they are detached.
    Last edited by Zane the Reaper, Jan 30, 2013
  11. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    Missed this last part of your post, Mech. Totally agree.
    Last edited by Zane the Reaper, Jan 30, 2013
  12. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Obi Wan also believed only Luke(or plus Leia) could fight Vader and save the galaxy.
  13. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    That's always been my interpretation as well. The way I see it, the purpose of ROTJ is to prove that love and compassion can ultimately defeat evil. Relationships are perfectly fine as long as they do not lead to attachment/jealousy. By ignoring Anakin's obvious cries for help and telling him to force down his emotions the Jedi of the PT created an unstable time bomb. Had they allowed Anakin to marry Padme and then counseled him through periods of anger they could have prevented his eventual breakdown.

    As for the line in ROTS, I've always assumed that Obi-Wan was willing to say anything to get Anakin to reconsider his choice to become a Sith. Because no matter how you slice it, "no attachments and no love period" is a pretty absolute statement.
    Zane the Reaper likes this.
  14. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Believing in one of two possibilities is certainly less absolute than believing in only one. Additionally, we now know that Obi-wan and Yoda came to that conclusion after trying a whole bunch of other things to get rid of Palpatine. In addition to their own personal attempts to kill the Emperor, Obi-Wan and yoda were likely aware, via the Force, of the literally dozens of other people, Jeid and otherwise, who tried and failed to get rid of Palpatine and/or Vader.

    Certainly raw power wasn't the solution - Galen Marek had Force energy practically oozing from every pore, and that didn't bring Vader down. if anything, embracing Luke and/or Leia represents the final crumbling of Jedi Order dogma - they finally decided to try and manipulate Vader through his attachments for good bringing matters full circle and sort of retroactively making Obi-Wan's comment true.

    In a broader sense regarding this particular statement by Obi-Wan and a number of others by him, my view is that Obi-Wan is supposed to represent something very close to the Jedi ideal (which is an outgrowth of Sir Alec Guiness' general awesomeness back during the original ANH portrayal). A great many of his peers were blinded by a dogma he was able to reject. There are various hints at this scattered across the PT, and certainly many more in various Clone Wars materials. Among other things we know Obi-Wan is aware that Anakin and Padme have a thing, but he's apparently never reported it to Yoda or Windu in a sort of personal rejection of that absolute order.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Problem is- his skepticism at Luke's assertation that there is still good in Vader.

    And in The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi- his spirit is on the DS2- he winces when Luke throws away his lightsaber- and he is utterly amazed when Vader attacks the Emperor.
  16. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    That's exactly how I feel - I really like your interpretation of ROTJ and believe it is spot on. My own fanfiction-y thoughts about a sequel trilogy would have to do with Luke re-interpreting the Jedi philosophy for a new age. The force was "out of balance" not just because the Sith managed to take over, but also because the old Jedi way was too one-sided and inflexible. The tennents of the new Jedi way should be love and compassion, as you say, over suppression and emotional detachment.
    Last edited by Zane the Reaper, Jan 31, 2013
  17. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    He just wanted his best friend back.
    Last edited by Manisphere, Jan 31, 2013
  18. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Or maybe it was just a badly thought out random lines by Lucas on par with what was coming out of Anakin's mouth "I can overthrow him and you and I can rule the galaxy" and "I have bought peace and freedom to my new Empire" ............ 5 mins later "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over" o_O
    Last edited by fett 4, Jan 31, 2013
  19. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    Believe me, there are worse lines than "Sith deal in absolutes". Like, "I don't know. Mesa day startin pretty okee-day with a brisky morning munchy, then BOOM! Gettin very scared and grabbin that Jedi and POW! Mesa here! Mesa gettin' very very scared!". That's a bad line. “Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo; so long ago when there was nothing but our love. No politics, no plotting, no war.” is a bad line. "Only Sith deal in absolutes" can be taken as ironic. Incidentally, I tend to think that Lucas loved Obi-Wan as much as we tend to because he seemed to concentrate on giving him some of the least stupid dialogue of the prequels.
  20. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    A: In my opinion the Jedi are EVIL.
    O: Let's talk about this calmly, why do you think that? And How do you feel about that?
    A: Join me, we can destroy the Emperor, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.
    O: OK, as long as we kill the Emperor first.
    A: Then you'll join me?
    O: I said so, didn't I, now when do we go kill Palpatine?
  21. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Instead of Obi-wan saying "you are lost", what he should have said is the Jedi are not the ones killing children and choking there pregnant wife
    darth fluffy and ILNP like this.
  22. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Lol if we are quoting Jar Jar then "Dellow felegates" does deserve a good mention and if we are doing Padme lines, "To be angry is to be human" right after her boyfriend just confessed to mass murder is still the winner for me
  23. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    It suprises me that they have not published a story about a Sith falling in love with a Jedi. Such a cliché...
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The Fate of the Jedi series comes close with Vestara (a trainee Sith) falling in love with Ben (a trainee Jedi).
    General Immodet likes this.
  25. Mayla Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    It kind of made me chuckle, actually... ONLY the Sith deal in absolutes? Isn't that an absolute statement right there? Taking his statement literally, you could argue that he'd have to be a Sith to be telling the truth. :p
    SkywalkerSquadron likes this.