Lit Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Spoilers Allowed]

Discussion in 'Literature' started by SephyCloneNo15, Feb 13, 2008.

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  1. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    As Zor says, TSL was a direct continuation of KotOR.

    In fact, TSL is wholly responsible for the clamouring people have for the "continuity porn". The story in KotOR was done. Revan was done. They were all done. Then TSL dragged everything back up again.*

    It frustrates me to this day. I only hope Obsidian are responsible for KotOR 3... since one *assumes* they knew where they were going with everything.


    * Avellone is a fantastic game writer... but you simply cannot cite either him or Obsidian as folks who tried to avoid "continuity porn". Unless, of course, LA forced them to retool their story to fit Revan in, after his breakout popularity. [face_thinking] That wouldn't surprise me, actually, Avellone said in an interview that the basic story was written before any of them had played KotOR I and didn't involve Revan at all.

    http://www.starwarsknights.com/fullstory.php?id=386

    Emperor Devon: Like any other game I'd imagine TSL had entirely different story drafts that were written up before the current ones. (Or at least substantially different ones.) What were some of the earlier drafts of TSL's plot like, or if there weren't any how different was the plot when you first envisioned it and what was that like?

    Chris Avellone: The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren?t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).

    It was a frustrating situation that we wasted 2-3 months on that (there was nothing to be done about it), and then had to do another revision once we were able to play the first game. If you feel a disconnect in the storylines, that would be one of the reasons (again, my fault).
  2. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    February 2008 Game Informer

    The TOP 10 Sequels In Demand

    10.Crimson Skies
    09.Diablo
    08.Chrono
    07.Eternal Darkness
    06.Punch Out!!
    05.X-Com
    04.Jedi Knight
    03.System Shock
    02.Shadowrun
    01.Knights of the Old Republic Probability 85%

    There's a reason it's the most demanded sequel, people fell in love with the characters more than anything. And while the probability that there will still be some new characters to add to it, they're not gonna sweep the pre-existing ones under the rug just yet. And I doubt they're gonna drift too far from the storyline, as well. And they don't need to. But they do need to figure a new formula for the main character. Either use a pre-existing one(Revan, Exile, etc.) or have one thats already set up in terms of race, gender, and so on. This "keeping everything a mystery" crap in the comics(in terms of Revan and the Exile)is a little silly.

    So really, to me, it's a matter of when, not if. And given it's Star Wars, I think helps it even more. The only problem is people love it more for the characters and the story than for the gameplay. If it's made like Jade Empire and Mass Effect, there shouldn't be a problem.
  3. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    And before KotOR I, who loved them? No-one, because they didn't exist. If they made characters we "fell in love with" once, they can do it again. :)

    Besides, most of them didn't appear in KotOR II anyway. I'd have rather seen the KotOR I characters further explored in comics than videogame sequels.

    Why figure out a "new formula"? They should just do what Mass Effect has. You can make your own character... but there is an "Official" version of the character. Only difference is that in SW it would be the canon version, too. ;)
  4. Sikon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2006
    star 3
    Technically, NWN2 is in-continuity with NWN1. But everything is different. Neverwinter is different, the villains are different, your companions are different, etc. You meet exactly one companion from the first game, counting the expansions.

    Similarly, TSL is technically in-continuity with K1, but the focus is on completely different events: it's about long-term consequences of the Mandalorian Wars, which were given much more elaboration than in K1 - while K1 was about short-term consequences of the Jedi Civil War.

    If Obsidian pandered to the base with TSL, we would get a game where you would play Revan again and continue the struggle against either the remnants of Malak's forces or the Republic, with the entire old cast. And that would be insanely boring and utterly predictable: it would sacrifice all the novelty and originality of TSL for the kind of petty continuity that Avellone, like it or not, tried to avoid.

    But those who wanted TSL to be a direct continuation with the same characters, rather than a "look from the side" five years later, are probably those who want K3 to focus on the same old characters to begin with.
  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    I'm sorry, but Obsidian did pander to the base. Not to the extent they could have done... and possibly not even by choice, but yeah - they did.

    There was absolutely no reason for TSL to be set when it was. No reason at all other than to have KotOR cast cameos and make Revan an important figure. The same story could have been told five hundred or a thousand years later. Why did we need to see the long-term consequences of the *Mandalorian Wars*, specifically, especially if it meant draggug up Revan's story again, and making excuses as to why he wasn't around.

    TSL tells an incredibly interesting story, certainly, but any wars Obsidian could have cared to invent would have done the trick just as well. Would they have resonated as strongly? Maybe, maybe not. But, to be fair, they changed the Mandalorian Wars and the JCW to suit their own story anyway so they might as well have invented entirely new ones.

    Would K2 have lost some of what made it good if set in a different time period? Sure, maybe, I think KotOR 2 is what made Revan the interesting and intriguing character that he is, after all... but I think it would have been better for it to stand entirely upon its own two feet.

    In my case, not at all.

    As I said, the "Revan Period" was done. It was over. I didn't want KotOR 2 to have anything to do with him or his friends... but it did, and - not only that - it kept talking about him, kept giving us hints as to where he was then sent the Exile after him. Not only that, but it left us with a whole bunch of irritating questions and an annoying "True Sith" problem.

    KotOR II ended on a clear "to be continued!" note. It wasn't: "and they all lived happily ever after", ala KotOR I. It was: "Now the Exile is off to find Revan."

    Now, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if KotOR 3 had very little to do with the previous games... (it'd have been a different story if K3 had followed straight on the heels of K2, however) simply because it'll be difficult to hook new players in with a story that's in its third act... but you cannot blame people for wanting a direct continuation of a game that almost slaps us about the face saying that there is going to be a direct continuation.

    I mean, you talk about insanely boring? How insanely boring would it be to be following the Exile's path all over again, except this time wondering: "Hey, whatever happened to Revan and the Exile?" before you head off into the Unknown Regions?

    If your reaction to the end of K2 was: "Okay, that's the Exile done, I wonder who I'm going to play as next?" then I imagine you're in the minority.

    All I can hope is that, if they don't make K3 a direct sequel to K2, that they have it set years and years afterwards.
  6. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    I'd actually go as far as to say I think KOTOR2 would have been better if it wasn't such a direct sequel to KOTOR1. Obsidian had to contend with such an unrealistic deadline and were clearly forced to rework things multiple times after they finally got hold of the finished version of the first game and realised things in KOTOR2 needed changing. [face_plain]

    Had they been allowed from the start to just "make a new game based on a the KOTOR engine" I think we would have had a much stronger story that would potentially have been much more polished, as instead of spending time working in KOTOR1 at the last minute, they would have spent more time getting the game finished. [face_mischief]

    The way things were we just got left with so many unanswered questions. Case in point, was Traya Arren Kae or not? Was she Revan's first Master? Did she train him to any considerable extent? Was she the Sith who corrupted him? Who came first, the Traya or the egg? If it had been entirely stand alone, we could have avoided all these questions and instead had a Traya who was built up independently, focusing more on why Traya was the villain, not why her apprentice Revan from the first game was so great.

    Now, admittedly, part of the great appeal of KOTOR2 was the mystery. Ironic as it may be, the unanswered questions, the plot holes, the lack of an ending, all these things which weren't so much intentional as much as they were due to the game simply not being finished, they all added to the mystique of KOTOR2. Traya is such an intriguing character because we know so little about her and her backstory is so messy.

    However, that said, every time I watch the trailers for the Sith Lords Restoration Project I feel as if the game could have been so much more. Some of the best clips they've put up have nothing to do with KOTOR1 and are just interaction between Traya, Nihilus and Sion, truly making them seem like the bad guys, arguably making Traya feel creepier and even more evil than Malak ever did. I just love the trailer which has Atton and Briana challenging Kreia. "Your dark schemes end here Kreia!" "You have corrupted the people I care about! The Exile!" and so on. There was just so much character to them even without their ties to KOTOR1.
  7. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Yeah, I actually think I'll agree with you on that. There is so much "Independant Awesome" in KotOR 2... but it gets completely overshadowed by Revan.

    Now, in some ways, that is awesome in and of itself. I like Revan. In other ways, I think they did their own story a disservice by concentrating so heavily on the previous protagonist.

    Indeed, I recall an interview where Avellone (or perhaps another Obsidian employee) said: "We thought it was important to gives hints to the Exile what your character was up to in the Unknown Regions."

    How strange is that? Not even referring not to the Exile as "us" but Revan.

    And, even stranger, since KotOR II came off the heels of KotOR I... that's how I actually felt. Even though I had more control over the Exile, I identified more with Revan. He was my character, even in KotOR II. Not a good feeling to be having.

    You speak the truth... but I still hope the questions are answered.

    And I hope it is Obsidian who answer them. Giving a direct TSL sequel to another company would be a serious mistake, in my opinion. Even if Obsidian give the other guys their notes, who is to say they'll follow them properly or exactly? I don't want the transition between K2/3 to be as jarring as that between K1/2.

    Yes, I absolutely agree.
  8. Sikon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2006
    star 3
    This one is answered. Yes, she was. And in the end, he came back to her.

    Precisely! Although vagueness is a rather cheap way of creating an suspense, and may hurt in the long run (see Lost), so I hope they'll abandon the practice in K3.

    Kreia was so great because she was somewhat of a rarity in Star Wars: a sneaky evil character. And the fact that she's the most thoroughly-written character in the game, possibly in both games, certainly helps. The stereotypical Jedi and Sith are Lawful Stupid and Chaotic Stupid, respectively - and it constantly hurts both factions throughout SW history. And these two character types were basically the only way to roleplay your character in K1: either a goody-two-shoes saint, or a psychotic baby-eater. It's good that TSL brought some variety, not just with Kreia but with additional roleplay options.
  9. GoA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2007
    star 2
    Not to jump into an ongoing debate, but this above is exactly why I think KOTOR III has to be a direct continuation to TSL. The story kind of put them in a corner, by having it as such a cliffhanger ending. So, now, if they make KOTOR III and the story has very little to do with the events, and ending of TSL, it'll leave a lot of people with a "wtpants? where's the closure?" feeling.

    I wish they simply hadn't have done that from the start. As has been stated many times, KOTOR I didn't need a sequel. The story was done, it made sense to be done, and that chapter in the SW universe was written. Revan's story was told. TSL shouldn't have even included Revan. Like Final Fantasy, it should have simply just been a new story in the KOTOR time-line. And, really, if there was no guarantee for a third installment (as opposed to, say, Mass Effect, which has been stated to be a trilogy right from the beginning), then TSL should not have had a cliff hanger ending, which pretty much shoehorned the third game into being a conclusion to TSL, rather than a stand-alone game in its own right.

    As it stands, I'll be one of the people who will be disappointed if KOTOR III isn't a direct continuation of TSL. Not because I'm one of those fanboys that expects to play the same character over and over again, or not even because I necessarily love the story or where it's going. But because I simply want closure, closure that I didn't get at the end of TSL.

    You know what would be ideal, but which I don't think is even a possibility? They (Obsidian, Lucasarts) close this chapter, with the Exile and Revan in the Unknown Regions, in an expanse pack, rather than a full-fledged game. That way, the story doesn't have to be long, it can simply be the conclusion of Exile chasing down Revan into the UR, and then they can spend their time creating a new game that doesn't have these loose ends limiting what they can write about.
  10. RushinSundaws Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2005
    star 2
    I have to ask, has this actually been confirmed or is it just still the EA press release and later retraction with "Oops, we didn't mean to have that there?"
  11. DoubleSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 3
    LucasArts (just like they did back in 2004) have decided to layoff a significant amount of their workforce. Seems like a few disgruntled ex-employees are spilling the beans on their upcoming projects:

    http://kotaku.com/5013769/rumor-ex+lucasarts-staffer-talks-kotor-3-more-indy-wii-lightsaber-game
  12. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    For once I'm hoping this is just a rumour. I don't want a MMO KOTOR3.

    If it does end up being a MMO then I just pray they do a better job of continuing the story than WoW. I utterly despise the fact I followed the story of Arthas and Illidan in a well scripted game like WC3 and have been forced to watch their stories be wrecked through amateur storytelling in WoW.

    Its not that the story in WoW is bad its just they don't tell it. You might get a few lines on a quest log but thats about it. Apart from that its all "piece it together yourself" and just assuming that some random band of adventurers went and beat up Illidan. Whoopdeedoo.

    I can see it now. A line in a future Essential Chronology about how the Dark Lord Darth Revan returned to the dark side and was finally defeated by a party of twenty five random adventurers including a Teras Kasi Master, a Rifleman and a Politician.

    Please... just no... pleeeeeease... I'd sooner not have KOTOR3 than that. :_|

    If it must be a MMO then they better put storytelling above milking it for money. [face_not_talking]

    Plus for continuities sake I see a MMO being suicide except for in a completely new era.
  13. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Don't forget One Of Five Thousand Other Sith Lords.
  14. GoA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2007
    star 2
    QFT.

    Fact is, what made KOTOR I and II so special, was the story telling. IMO, you just can't get the tight, precise story telling in a MMO game that you can in a single player game.

    If LA decides to make KOTOR III a MMO, it'll be yet another example of simply capitalizing on something that's popular, and trying to then sell it to a larger market, caring little for the quality of the end product.
  15. Magnuskn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I also don´t want a KOTOR MMO... for other reasons than the others. [face_mischief]

    I just finally got rid of WoW, and a well made Star Wars MMO would totally, absolutely destruct my social life. Or at least everything outside of my circle of friends and going to work... and that would be *very* bad. I still need to finish university, after all.

    And if it´s Bioware... well, I´d expect the game to be excellent. [face_worried]

    Magnus
  16. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Thinking about it... wasn't there a rumour a few months back about a "KOTOR" MMORPG that was going to be set in the Clone Wars? Can't say more Clone Wars stuff would surprise me actually.

    Actually, it would make sense of the simultanteous "there is a third KOTOR game" and "there will be no KOTOR3" leaks too, if it was "KOTOR3" in a sense but not the KOTOR3. Kind of like how JA wasn't a JO2 but was sort of a "JO2".
  17. Ceth_Jonuck Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2006
    star 1
    My head just exploded, lol. :oops:
  18. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    If KotOR 3 is an MMO, I hope its set in the NSW and has nothing to do with Revan and the Exile.

    The "Old Republic" is a long period of time, after all.
  19. Valhoun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2008
    star 1
    KoToR 3 is about as safe a bet as anything in the game industry. Just like StarCraft II, it's not a matter of "if" but "when" it will be released. Companies have become more secretive in recent years about exactly what titles they are working on. They just don't want to be burned by over-hype and disappointment when a title is inevitably delayed. KoToR is a cash cow, that franchise will be around for a very long time.

    I don't see any direct sequel to KoToR being an MMO. There may certainly be an MMO based in the same timeframe but, KoToR 3 will almost certainly be along the lines of the previous games. While Obsidian isn't quite at the level of Bioware, they were hand-picked by Bioware on a number of occasions to continue franchises that began as Bioware products. Both companies share similar strengths and gaming philosophies. While Obsidian expanded with creating another KoToR in mind, they still aren't a large enough company to produce such an expansive MMO and they have no experience in online gaming whatsoever.

    Black Isle Studios focused entirely on immersive single-player RPGs. So does Bioware and so does Obsidian. Those three studios are closely inter-related and produced amazing quality games. However, they have virtually no expertise in the MMO business and, in the case of Obsidian, simply don't have the manpower to do one.
  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Well BioWare are working on an unnamed MMORPG, thats been confirmed for a while, though its always been unknown whether it is SW related or not. In some ways, I suppose you could ask why BioWare would be keeping something secret if there wasn't an external company involved, but who knows?

    I agree with you though that BW have no actual MMORPG experience which is why I fear for it if, whether it is SW related or not. I've always seen BW and Obsidian's strengths as being in their storytelling more than anything. If that transfers over to their MMORPG efforts, maybe it would be cool, but I do worry they may approach it the wrong way. I do somewhat worry though whether BW will use the KOTOR name to sell their first attempt at a MMORPG to ensure it at least gets some sales. D&D is their forte, but I guess it may be possible they realise what with WoW and the upcoming Warhammer Online game the fantasy MMORPG market is already saturated.

    In that sense, Clone Wars would make me happy as another lame CW game is just another lame CW game that can't hurt anything. I agree with Uli though, if they do a MMORPG I'd ideally like to see the NSW since its such a blank canvass they'd really have to try hard to screw it up, plus it would finally paint the picture of something we've never really seen touched.
  21. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    The KOTOR brand has never stood for the entirety of the Old Republic time period, but for a specific window in that timeframe.
  22. DoubleSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 3
    Bioware's MMO team is basically Star Wars Galaxies' original development team, plus or minus a few people. Take that as you will.
  23. Bly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2005
    star 4
    Well, I'll take that as further evidence KOTOR III shouldn't be an MMO.
  24. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Go go Bothan Canderous! Go go Mr. T Carth!
  25. DoubleSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 3
    I'll say this: Think of this game as Galaxies 2 rather than KOTOR 3 and temper your anticipation/excitement/hype accordingly.
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