Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I'm not referring to the original action by Tenebrous's Master, I'm referring to Plagueis and Sidious sitting down and knocking the darn thing over. I always thought the imbalance was a natural, progressive phenomenon by Palpatine's rise.
    Sitara likes this.
  2. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    That's what I'm talking about too. Luceno said he didn't cover it because he was told Lucas planned to have it covered in something else.

    And the Force still began to drift towards to the dark side, starting 300 or so years before the movies, and that's underlined and better explained by Luceno in the Plagueis book too.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Dec 12, 2012
  3. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    No, the Jedi never talked about the Force being out of balance. They simply referred to the prophecy of the one who would bring balance to the Force. Big difference.

    Furthermore, the Jedi seem confused about Anakin and the prophecy, indicating there was nothing wrong in the Force in TPM, i.e. they did not feel there was any balancing to be done. And ofcourse, Yoda's comments that 'a prophecy misread could have been'

    Finally, personally I do not feel it is possible for any being to disbalance the Force itself. I mean, come on. The prophecy referred to the fact that initially the Jedi numbered in the thousands while the Sith were 2. Then, the Jedi were 2 and the Sith were 2. Then, the Jedi was 1 and Sith were none.

    Or something. Honestly, I think Lucas kinda blew it with the whole 'bringing balance to the Force thing'. There should never have been any mention of midichlorins, or a prophecy, or the chosen one. Just a boy in the desert who was exceptionally strong in the Force and very talented at using it without even being trained.

    That ought to be enough to want Qui Gon want to train him, no?
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There is no meaningful difference. If the Force is not out of balance, there is no need for someone to bring balance to it. Besides, in AOTC Mace says that Anakin is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance ( if the prophecy is true ).

    That did not happen. They never indicated that "there was nothing wrong with the Force in TPM" or that there wasn't any balancing to be done. If anything they indicated the opposite.

    Which resulted from the characters not having foreknowledge of ROTJ, unlike the audience. In the context of their discussion we know that the prophecy was not misread: Anakin was the Chosen One, Anakin did end up destroying the Sith.

    Lucas and Luceno appear to disagree.

    You're the one who blew it, not Lucas. You illegitimately replaced balance of the Force with balance of the Force-users. Force-users are not the Force so that is a mistake.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 12, 2012
  5. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    How many times now are people gonna bring up the theory that "Balance to the Force" means a balance of Force users?
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Billions and billions" - Carl Sagan
  7. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Which (or both?) unbalancing did Luceno say Lucas planned to cover in something else?
  8. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Plagueis and Palpatine, ten years before Episode 1.

    When their dark meditation "overthrew" the will of the Force. Which was shortly followed by Plagueis learning how bring others back to life, not just extend life. Plagueis was then able to increase his own midichlorian count, and tried to create a Forceful being (and the Force either allowed that to happen and kept it hidden from the Sith, or it created Anakin as a backlash against all this that Plagueis and Palpatine were doing).

    Luceno said it in an online interview, right around the time his book was released.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Dec 12, 2012
  9. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Your taking things out of it's timeline, and putting your own interpretations that are not there.

    "No, the Jedi never talked about the Force being out of balance. They simply referred to the prophecy of the one who would bring balance to the Force. Big difference." A prophecy they believed in. They equally never come out and say, "Why bother training the kid when there is obviously nothing wrong with the force?" Your interpretation of the event goes against the context of the entire story, especially since Attack of the Clones makes it bluntly clear that the Jedi new there was a problem for a really long time. (Refer to my last comment to you about that)

    "Furthermore, the Jedi seem confused about Anakin and the prophecy, indicating there was nothing wrong in the Force in TPM, i.e. they did not feel there was any balancing to be done. And ofcourse, Yoda's comments that 'a prophecy misread could have been'" Again you are reading your own interpretation. They are confused by a lot of things. The sith have returned without them knowing (Which by the way very much proves they are now realizing there is a balance issues), Qui Gon brings this kid who he believes is the chosen one. They are not just going to take his word for it considering he has a tendency to disagree with the counsel on a regular basis. The Yoda line of the prophecy being misunderstood is actually form Attack of the clones which is stated after they bluntly acknowledge there is a balance issue.

    "Finally, personally I do not feel it is possible for any being to disbalance the Force itself. I mean, come on. The prophecy referred to the fact that initially the Jedi numbered in the thousands while the Sith were 2. Then, the Jedi were 2 and the Sith were 2. Then, the Jedi was 1 and Sith were none." As others have said that is a Lucas plot concept so it is what it is.

    "Or something. Honestly, I think Lucas kinda blew it with the whole 'bringing balance to the Force thing'. There should never have been any mention of midichlorins, or a prophecy, or the chosen one. Just a boy in the desert who was exceptionally strong in the Force and very talented at using it without even being trained." I'm confused. first you say this book is to blame for al these issues and problems, and now you are saying it was the fault of Lucas for bringing in the whole Balance of the force issue. Which is it? It sounds a bit more like you are realizing all the plot ideas you spoke poorly of in the book were there all along in the films, and now you feel the need to backpedal.
  10. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    I don't think so. Sith to exist and to become even stronger they should have been rich. Darth Bane was rich, Zannah inherited all Bane's fortune. I think that this was continued to the others. Of course that Sith should have had 2 identities, because it wasn't that they only trained that one day they will defeat the Jedi but they were preparing for it. And what a better way to do it than to be wealthy and influential persons. Just remember that resources Palpatine had. He became Supreme Chancellor although he was from a small planet, yes he took sympathy because of Naboo situation but still to became a supreme Chancellor you should have been very influential. Also he created a clone army (Sifo Dyas gave the order but as we know from the novel Demask paid for it) so to have all these resources Sith should have had 2 life, one where they are the Sith and the other where they are influential and rich.

    Vader and Maul are very bad examples to be fair. Maul from the novel has been explained that he was never a Sith, he was more Palpatine pet who killed people for him (though he though that he's a Sith and didn't have any clue that his master in fact is a Sith apprentice). In fact Maul to me looked something like Asajj Ventress, being the apprentice of Sith apprentice. Vader on the other side didn't had the need of having two lives because then the Jedi Order was destroyed and the Sith took over the republic and didn't had the need to hide.

    About your other points, I don't think that Palpatine was that old to be trained (he was same as Luke, younger than Katarrn and Leia so no problem there). Also, in the end of the novel you can see that Palpatine wasn't simply an apprentice who only took orders. He from the beginning was manipulating Plagueis and all the time learnt from him. When he didn't need him anymore, he killed his Master like all good Sith do.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  11. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Just finished DP the other day. Overall, I liked it. It did start to dip in the middle - the closer we got to TPM, the more it seemed like Luceno was just joining the dots of previous EU. But the climax made up for it - Plagueis and Palpatine's reactions to Anakin and the Chancellorship election, plus the events of the Epilogue (I don't know exactly why, but as a journalist I absolutely loved the line about Damask's death going entirely unnoticed in the media).

    Some things I noticed:

    1. I disagree with the poster who disliked Plagueis and Tenebrous having dual identities - for me, this was one of the strongest aspects of the book. I had always hated the impression given that the Sith had just skulked about in robes for a thousand years, and then Sidious had the idea of actually doing something. The Sith subtly manipulating galactic events until the galaxy was in complete disarray is much more satisfying, and fits with the bit in Stover's RotS novelisation where Yoda realises that the Jedi were fighting the Sith in the wrong way.

    2. One of the reason I like the subtle manipulator Sith is that it ties in with my personal belief that the whole "unbalance of the Force" issue was a large-scale cultural thing, ie the dark side was becoming more prominent in the PT because there was more corruption and evil deeds being committed in the galaxy (with Anakin bring balance to the Force by killing the guy who'd created the daddy of all evil regimes). Of course, Luceno destroys by saying, no, the Force was unbalanced because of a Sith ritual. Which works for the novel and all, but not so much for the overall Saga.

    3. By the same topic, I wasn't keen on the fact that Luceno killed one of the most fascinating ideas to come out of the prequel trilogy - Anakin being Plagueis's alchemical creation. I understand that thematically that the Sith are still responsible for their own downfall, but it just lacks the genius vibe of making Anakin "born of the Force" without it being some weird spiritual event.

    4. It's all well and good having Palpatine say at the end "I was manipulating you the whole time", but it didn't feel like it. It really did seem like Plagueis was responsible for most of the bad guys' moves in the PT (and you could even say a lot of the OT). Some subtle hints that Sidious was planting these ideas wouldn't have hurt. Or maybe they were there, but they were so subtle I missed them.

    But yeah, don't let my nitpicking fool you, on the whole a good yarn. I have to say I prefer the more dialogue-driven, less action-y novels - very few authors can pull off action sequences in a way that makes them anything like as compelling as a film.
    Sable_Hart likes this.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I wasn't keen on that either, but his presentation of "born of the Force" was through character opinion and left just enough room for ambiguity on that topic.
  13. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Luceno confirmed in an interview that he intended how Anakin was actually created to remain ambiguous.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Really? What interview? In the one I saw he didn't exactly come out and say it directly, but his response to a question seemed to indicate that he took one position over the other.
  15. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    One of the interviews I read on TFN.
  16. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Despite Luceno's reputation as more of a cerebral novelist than others, I submit that Plagueis's brawl with the Maladian assassins ranks as one of the very best fight scenes in the EU.
    Vialco and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  17. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    You're right in that it is ambiguous, but Plagueis and Palpatine's joint surprise suggests neither had any idea Anakin was out there.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If only because of Pestage showing up with a big gun and going all Rambo. :p
  19. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    For the record -- that's one of my top three favorite scenes in the whole EU. Don't ask me what the other two are because I don't know yet. But that one -- no question.
  20. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I meant ambiguous whether Plagueis accidentially created Anakin or The Force created Anakin to stop Plagueis.
  21. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Does anyone else think Rugess Nome influenced the Republic to adopt the Bendu symbol? The TOR Sith used the Bendu symbol and Nome is a Sith participating in the Grand Plan (which ultimately turns the Republic into the Empire). As a starship designer, perhaps Nome suggested making the Bendu symbol the symbol of the Republic and putting it on Republic starships.

    Edit: I hear the symbol appears in this very book. Where?
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Dec 31, 2012
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Republic doesn't have a military anymore.

    Republic had that symbol for thousands of years before the "Great War," and had that symbol for thousands of years after. (It also seems to have originally been a Je'Daii/Jedi symbol from Tython, originating with the Kwa and the Tho Yor)

    Why would the Republic change its entire symbol, its flag, because a starship engineer wanted to?
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In part they were there. Specifically I'm thinking of the issues involving the use of the clone army. On some other points Palpatine's assertion that it came from him is harder to defend ( Dooku, for example ) or seems to make little sense. So it's a mixed bag, and indeed the "revelation" is thus not as strong as it otherwise could have been.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jan 1, 2013
  24. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Show me examples.
  25. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Just about all EU that deals with the Republic and isn't the TOR video game.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Republic