Lit Why would Bane think the Rule of Two would work?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Why_So_Serious, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 27, 2013
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    For someone who decried the idea of suffering for the sake of others, Darth Bane's entire evil scheme rested on the willingness on the part of generations of selfish psychopaths to matyr themselves for his philosophic ideals. All it would take for his entire grand plan to fall to pieces is one, just one, Sith Lord to decide, "You know what? Screw the Sith Order! I'm in this for #1." and then act on it.

    Rather than risking their necks for the sake of the approval of some dead guy, this hypothetical Sith Lord would simply not take an apprentice at all, merely using their powers for personal gain as they saw fit. Or, if they wanted/needed an apprentice, simply deliberately selecting one with a much weaker connection to the Force, followed by a deliberate crippling of their training. Voila! A Sith apprentice powerful enough to be a viable lackey, but far too weak to ever hope to overthrow their master. Rule of Two, broken.

    So why exactly was Bane so confident that a bunch of lunatic sociopathic egomaniacs wouldn't simply decide they don't give a damn about him or his rule and ditch the whole thing?
  2. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Like most Sith, Bane is bats*** insane. All the information you need :)

    Anyway, practically every Sith after Bane, and possibly even Bane himself depending on your interpretation of it, breaks or attempts to break the Rule at some point. I'm of the opinion that knowing when to bend the rule is almost a test for Sith.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 8, 2013
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  3. Ghost Chosen One

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    The Rule of Two was a test of strength...

    If the apprentice failed, then that meant the master was still stronger, and he's have to find another apprentice. Its was a test of the master's strength.

    If the master failed, then that meant the apprentice was stronger and should be the master.

    I bet each Master thought they were invincible, the most powerful ever who would return the Sith to full glory, even Bane did at the end. Overconfidence of the masters, and underestimation of their apprentices, is built into the Rule of Two.
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  4. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Why would Bane think that, because he is Duro that's why !

    See Iv learnt my lesson :p
  5. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
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    The very valid problem the OP points out, though, is that it only takes one weakness to end the Sith forever. One Sith to end the grand plan, to end a dynasty thousands of years in the making, with absolutely no back up. As far as I'm concerned, stupidity is a form of weakness, one the Sith are all too quick to display.

    But like I said, every Sith and his mother broke the Rule of Two in some way. Who knows whether Bane predicted that (Karpyshyn doesn't seem to think so).
  6. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

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    Oct 14, 2008
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    Does Bane thinking the rule of two would work......contradict the EU?
  7. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 3, 2012
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    it works because everyone cheats plus u know holocrons and artifacts just in case a major screw up occurs and everyone dies.
    Last edited by Skaddix, Feb 9, 2013
  8. SaucySarlaac Jedi Knight

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Completely agree. In actual fact, the rule did work.

    Generations on generations of Sith contributed, expanded, discovered, rediscovered new information about the Force and harnessed this knowledge.

    In the end the Sith were only two, but had amassed so much knowledge and resources to rival the Jedi order, all on their own back. The Rule of Two was a form of darwinian survival of the fittest, with the result of evolving not only the order itself, but the individuals who made it up.

    It is true that several of the lineage violated the core rule 'one to embody the power, the other to crave it'.

    Theoretically, from Bane's purist standpoint, the rule was used to separate wheat from the chaff, and then the victor goes on to train a new apprentice. This theorem works nicely on paper but practically, the Sith Master was faced with a predicament:

    If he chose the wrong apprentice or later realised the being they had selected might have the raw force potential but lacked the mentality, attitude and aptitude to live by the rule (quote Plagueis "The test is can you live by it?") then doing away with the current apprentice and sourcing and training a new one is a lengthy and costly endeavour. Especially if for example, you are a human sith master in his 70's and your apprentice needs replacing, this eventuality might result in you training a new one at 70, dying with a partially trained apprentice, substantially weakening the line by leaving an unprepared master in place.

    So many Sith seem to have trained a back up or put the feelers out for a new one (Tenebrous and Plagueis reached an impasse and Tenebrous doubted Plagueis 'stomach' for their work, hence started to train Venamis as back up). I consider this act to be self serving but doubly serves the purpose of 'hedging your bets' as it were to ensure the next sith will be stronger.

    Apprentices have different motivations however:

    They may recruit Apprentices with the aim of supplanting their masters, but this motivation is violation of the Rule of Two because it demonstrates the Apprentices inability to surpass their Master without help. Therefore the Apprentice is unworthy.

    However, from what we know from the EU material out there, no Apprentices have double-teamed a Master in order to take their position, so in actual fact, despite some cross overs (due to life expectancy worries etc) which may well be insurance 'placeholders' (who should be elimated easily once the Apprentice rise to Master, a further test of strength) the Rule of Two works nicely IMHO
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  9. SaucySarlaac Jedi Knight

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Also, In Darth Plagueis, Tenebrous holds Bane in high regard and brooks no mocking or sarcasm about him. Plagueis even notes that Bane has been all but deified by his intellectual descendants.

    The point made about it all coming apart if one Master went all rogue is a valid concern.

    Darth Gravid's attempt at forging a new path off the beaten track led to him being assassinated by his apprentice who played by the rules.

    in the Darth Bane books, Bane made a massive deal about making a holocron which no doubt was available to apprentices as a primary source of their training as well as their own Master.

    Thinking about it, Bane is the figurehead and the pioneer of the order so his teachings would have been a very important source to the closest of the Sith which succeeded him at least.
  10. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Sure, but then that incarnation of Sith Order itself doesn't deserve to survive. As far as I'm concerned, that's just another example of the Rule doing its job. ;)

    But, yeah, Sidious himself can respond to OP's suggestion that a selfish Sith Master would just not take an apprentice at all:

    "A Master without an apprentice is the Master of nothing".

    The reason they take a powerful apprentice *is* self interest. It's the apprentice nipping at their heels that drives the Sith Master to greater and more extreme heights of power, undercutting any complacency they might otherwise experience and forcing them to advance or die. And the Sith -- at least Bane's Sith -- understand this, and realise it for the boon it is.

    I'm quite sure Bane knew that there would be those Sith who came after him more devoted to themselves than the Order as a whole, but he was confident that they would want to be as strong as they could possibly be, and not be some pathetic weakling without faith in their own strength, unwilling to risk their own lives in the attempt. His mistake was in assuming none would ever turn away from the dark side.
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  11. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    I really think Sith Orders composing of multiple Sith (for example the One Sith) are less powerful than Bane's Sith Order.
    By the way, Sith cannot share power. Bane was a clever guy (in my opinion).
  12. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    The multiple Sith
    Orders are less powerful.
    Bane's a clever guy.
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  13. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

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  14. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 3, 2010
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    What I find strange about the Rule of Two is that for a thousand years, each Dark Lord of the Sith apparently managed to find an apprentice with even more Force potential than he or she had. If we say that a Dark Lord took on a new apprentice to repeat the "apprentice kills master and chooses a new apprentice of his/her own" cycle on average once every 30 years, that's still about 33 generations of Sith Lords that, according to the Rule of Two, each had to be more powerful than the preceding one. Darth Bane himself, the first generation, is often called one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever. With that in mind, shouldn't there have come a time during the next thousand years when the current Dark Lord, no matter how hard he or she searched, just couldn't find a potential apprentice with more Force potential than he or she had?
    Last edited by Darth_Xeres, Feb 9, 2013
  15. Karohalva Jedi Grand Master

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    Talent is born, skill is made.
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  16. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    I think it's a mistake to look at "Force potential" as something with a hard ceiling. No-one can ever reach "max level" -- if there even is such a thing -- and there'll always something for them to work toward.

    When people talk about "X" having a higher Force potential than "Y", I don't take it to mean that they have a "higher level cap", as it were, but rather that they get a higher bonus to the rate of exp gain. :p
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  17. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2010
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    The Rule of Two also functions as a plea for posterity. The justification for the Rule was that it would allow the Sith to ultimately win, to beat the Jedi and to conquer the Republic. Which, of course, it did, vindicating Darth Bane historically. When he was formulating his instructions to apprentices, Bane could point to numerous examples of massive Sith empires with hordes of dark side users as having failed, over and over again, and he could identify infighting as the most probably example. Since eliminating the infighting was something he considered impossible (Bane seriously contemplated, and then rejected, the idea of one all-consuming dark lord to rule forever), he strove to create a system that could minimize it and, when it inevitably reared its head, survive regardless. That's what the Rule of Two does.

    If there's only one student, that student cannot overwhelm his/her master through strength of numbers (even though they kept trying, starting with Bane's own apprentice), meaning that if they do succeed in killing the master they'll have to have been strong, and learned enough, to carry on the Sith tradition, even if they just got lucky and were never as strong as their master - which is what Palpatine actually did, really.

    The motive to carry on the system is historical. Each Sith Lord presumably goes through a period in their life where they attempt to make the transition to eternal god of darkness to rule everlasting in suffering and pain over at least the whole galaxy. With the possible exception of Vitiate (who kinda sorta achieved a sufficently substantial piece of immortality to give that a go), they all eventually either go mad or realize that dream isn't going to happen and pick some other suitable legacy. Bane basically guided that legacy - he prophesized that his system would allow the overthrow of the Republic (and since this ultimately happened it is probably that many Baneite Sith were able to vaguely foresee this for centuries) and the destruction of the Jedi. And by limiting the number of Sith to two, he created an unbroken chain of individuals stretching from himself to the ultimate victor that every subsequent Sith would belong to and could claim a piece of. That meant the Bane made every one of the Baneite Sith honorary members of the 'Dark Lords who Paved the Way for Everlasting Sith Glory' club, just by making them Sith and having them preserve the Rule of Two.

    The Baneite lineage only lasted about a thousand years. Darth Plageuis establishes that these particular Sith lived very long lives, and had reigns accordingly. Plagueis was Dark Lord of the Sith for 35 years, his master, Tenebrous, for much longer, closer to 100. There may have only been around 20 true Banite Sith Lords, and you can bet that each new one had the names of all the former ones drilled into him absolutely.
  18. Karohalva Jedi Grand Master

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    May 27, 2008
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    Because he thought he was wiser than everyone else.
  19. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

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    [Drew K]Cuz he's mad swoll, brah! Do you even lift?[/Drew K]
  20. SaucySarlaac Jedi Knight

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    Very eloquently put :) I completely agree with what you have said. The lineage is quite outstanding. In comparison to movements in the Sith History such as Brotherhood of Darkness, the Banite line has continued on. Bane and his altruistic ideals serve several purposes to strengthen the line significantly, building and expounding on current knowledge, acquiring new knowledge and amassing resources whilst keeping each Sith on the leading edge of their ability and sharp as a whip.

    The Jedi by comparison are so decadent and have become stagnant. Yes their order is based on stricture and tradition, but as time progresses, the order becomes further out of touch with Galaxy. Yes, they serve the Senate and the Republic but actually have assumed a position of juxtaposing ideals. The Jedi are the peacekeepers and claim to manage themselves internally with the council, they are actually have their hands tied by Republic politics.

    The Sith had none of these issues, nor were they distracted from their goals (The Jedi, in fact they were executing the banality of the Republic for generations). Bane's rule ensured that despite a few personal projects, they actually were quite focussed.
  21. Corvax855 Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 23, 2011
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    This is why I keep hoping we get a continuation of the Bane novels all the way up to Darth Plagueis. I want to see all the mischief these Sith get up to, and how they handle the Rule of Two. Dynasty of Evil left so many intriguing possibilities, what with Zannah having some of Bane's life essence in her, and Set Harth out there (apparently) jumping from body to body. It would also be interested to see how Cognus ultimately defeats Zannah, the circumstances around their final confrontation, and the relationship between Millennial and whoever she takes as her true apprentice when Millennial flees. But now that the Disney deal has kind of thrown everything into chaos, I doubt we'll ever get novels that explore the complete lineage of the Bane Sith.
    Last edited by Corvax855, Feb 11, 2013
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  22. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
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    The rule of two will be broken not in the way OP says, but by redemption by Jedi of the apprentice after the apprentice overthrow his master.
    Apprentice: Mwahahahaah I killed you master now I am sith!
    Love interest: No, let go of your hate.
    Apprentice: You just want power for yourself, join me and we will rule the galaxy together!
    Love interest: Please Pretty please :*
    Apprentice: Awwwww. I could never hurt you. *Let go of his hate*

    End of the Sith!
  23. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 12, 2012
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    The rule of two also has a major benefit for the master. As the one holding all the power he does not need to get nervous over the thousands of sith under him getting a little to hungry over that power. A sith is going to want an apprentice to at least have around to do some of the dirty work, but the rule of two keeps him from developing a whole sith empire by seeing the personal benefit for him.

    I also think we can't use the old "evil" card. I think sith are more complex than being just evil beings who want to rule the galaxy. I think the philosophy is far more complicated than that. I think a true sith wants to see the philosophy take center stage even if it can't all be done by him. I think he cares more about the destruction of the Jedi than his own ego. I think he cares more about seeing the Jedi proven wrong.
  24. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    The rule of two worked for it's era, but without viable backups, dark Jedi lackeys and secret apprentices, that order of Sith will always be lacking in many ways. I like multiple Sith, especially when they have a strong leader that can keep his underlings in line by various means.
  25. SaucySarlaac Jedi Knight

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Me too!!!! I would love to see these novels, preferably handled by Luceno. I don't know if we will now though. For me they are great because by virtue of the Sith's need for secrecy, they tend to be political, philosophical, and deep compared to some novels which feature as much space battles, lightsaber duels and blaster fights as possible. I personally loved how Darth Plagueis had a good amount of battles but was more focused on idealogy