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Topic:
Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Shadow_of_Durron
Title: Games Draft Commish
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/25 5:27pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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It takes Conner all of a single second to go from his first form to Super Dino mode. And then maybe two additional seconds to go from that to Triassic. And then just a few more seconds to go from that to the Battlizer. It also takes him about one second to draw an opponent into the Triassic Dimension, where I don't see anybody winning. Not even Willow.
I mean... no. There's no one on the list that's going to take him out before he has a chance to power up at all. Yes, he's not a top-level pick in his normal form, but he's absolutely tough enough to be able to take a few shots from... pretty much everyone on the list that I can see, and then be able to recognize that he's outmatched and immediately power-up. For example, Neo and/or Smith. There's no doubt that they completely outclass him while he's not at all powered up, but neither do I see them beating him down and winning before he gets a chance to go to the next level. It's just not happening. And they're both still better if he's only in Super Dino, but now he's stronger, more durable and faster, and basically has even more time to realize that he needs to go stronger. And then... eh, well.
And, bleh, screw it. I'll post the vids. I just think it's a tremendous shame that this guy will never get drafted. Or this guy (terrifying spread eagle crotch shot at the 1:00 mark aside). Or this one. Or (definitely ignoring the inexplicable shots of the guy pretending he's a Power Ranger near the beginning, and there's no need to watch anything after 2:20) even this one.
But, eh, if it's Conner, it's Conner. It's guess it's really not something I need to worry about.
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Zizz
Title: M&TV Draft Commish
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/25 6:14pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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I knew it only took them a few seconds to actually perform the power-up, but I was always under the impression that they had to fight for a little while, and that they couldn't just power up whenever they wanted to. I think someone mentioned it near the beginning of matches of the last draft, and that's how I judged all the Rangers for the duration. So you're saying Conner could stand there by himself and constantly power up until he's at his peak form? Has he actually done it that quickly, or does he generally fight for a while with each form, and then power up? I always thought it was the latter, but you're the one who actually managed to put up with an entire season of the show, so you tell me. 
Still, even if he can get into his super mode as quickly as you're saying, I still don't think he's too much for the list. Guys like Neo and Smith have an advantage that can be pretty damn important in these types of matches, and that's their flight. I'm not going to put too much thought into it right now, but that ability closes the gap a good deal, and it would be a really hard decide on. That's why I don't think he's too much for the list, because even if he can beat everyone on it (and the jury's still out on that one), there are at least a few guys who can at least give him a really, really good fight. And that's good enough for me. He's certainly less dominant relative to the rest of the competition than Luke is in comparison to the JD list.
And to be quite honest, I don't consider it a shame at all that we won't see any of those guys on the list. That's just me though, and again, if anyone thinks differently and wants to comment, I'm more than open to making changes concerning that and virtually anything else.
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Shadow_of_Durron
Title: Games Draft Commish
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/25 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Usually they'll fight for a while before powering-up, but that doesn't mean that it's some sort of rule that they have to follow. If he realizes that he needs to power up to a certain level right away, then he can. Conner's even skipped a power level when he's had to. It's not like it's this way: "Oh, man, I'm getting stomped here... but I'm not allowed to transform into Triassic mode until I've fought for at least another minute. Damn!"
And Conner's got ways of dealing with flight. That really wouldn't be too big an advantage against him.
Okay, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. Conner's shown to be able lift and toss thousands (more likely tens of thousands) of tons using just one hand in his second most powerful form. Who else on the list is even remotely close to that level of strength?
In that same second most powerful form, he had those same thousands of tons of monster slam down on him. Not fall on him. Slammed. Stomped. Forcefully. And he showed pretty much no ill effects whatsoever. It was basically... an inconvenience to him. So who else on the list has shown anything anywhere close to that level of physical durability? Neo? Like when he survived getting slammed by Smith into the ground from pretty high up in the air in that final fight? Eh... okay, but I'd argue that that wasn't nearly as bad, and even so, Neo was... really, really messed up by that. Again, Conner? No ill effects. And, uh, Conner's still survived being knocked from Earth's orbit, through the atmosphere and down to the ground. That was a helluva lot worse than Smith's attack, and he was still more or less okay. Stunned, sure, but not beaten. So again, who else even comes close to this durability?
Conner is also blisteringly fast. Not the best in the draft, but top-tier. Which, combined with strength and durability that pretty much is the best, is pretty damned awesome.
On top of all this, he's capable of, with nothing more than a gesture, transporting him and his opponent to a dimension where he has complete control over the battlefield, where he can fly, nullify gravity, more or less teleport, melt into the ground and travel through it, materialize things along the lines of giant spider webs and the like to trap opponents out of nowhere, etc, etc, etc.
He's also got a wide variety of energy attacks spanning all his different forms, the strongest of which is as powerful as pretty much anything else in the draft. He even access to some pretty cool vehicles that he can summon to him at any time (no prep needed), but that's practically secondary. Not like he needs them.
So... really? He's not Luke-esque in any way? The way I see it, there's only one person on this non-beastie list that can beat him, and that'd be Willow. But not if he takes the battle to the Triassic Dimension. Then not even her.
That said, speaking of Willow... I need to take off for a little bit, but I'll get to her when I get back.
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Zizz
Title: M&TV Draft Commish
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/25 8:23pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Hmm, those are some good points. His strength and (especially) durability feats are definitely a good bit better than anyone else's. I did mean to include the whole "Conner-World" thing in my last post, was thinking about it before I began typing, and then it completely slipped my mind. If we were to keep Conner, there's no way that ability would be allowed, because it's way too far beyond ridiculous.
But that's if we even keep him in his regular form(s). I'm still not completely convinced that he'd beat down the top guys in this draft, and that's what he'd have to be able to do if we want to kick him out. I'd love to hear at least some brief details of the ways Conner would deal with the flight, apart from utilizing his speed. I suppose he could use his energy blasts as well, but guys like Neo and Smith are pretty damn maneuverable in the air, to go along with being so incredibly fast. I just think it would be a fight, and that makes me want to
He's Luke-esque I suppose, just not Luke-esque enough for me to want to remove him completely. I'm sure you didn't think his Triassic mode or whatever it's called would actually be permitted (it's more or less reality altering), so without that, does that make you lean towards leaving him, or are you still deadset against keeping him?
I just think a guy needs to be absolutely head and shoulders above the competition to warrant a removal. Like Willow is. That's just my opinion though.
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EmpireForever
Title: Awesomesauce Census & Games mod and definite girl
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/25 11:35pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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I'm always for cutting off the top. Ok, this guy is borderline at his worst, so why not just lose him? There are still plenty of rangers to take his place. Do we need to cling to him for some reason? Is there a single person in here that can claim to be a fan? I can recall his battlizer armor giving him some sort of propulsion, speaking for him dealing with flight.
Anyway, I've said it already, but I say lose Connor, Pinhead, and Willow. Maybe not Pinhead, because I think that maybe my opinion is slightly higher than some.
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Shadow_of_Durron
Title: Games Draft Commish
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/26 12:20am
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Yeah, pretty much what he said. And yep, Conner has a sort of jet pack that he uses in his battlizer form. That, combined with his multiple beam attacks and even his kinda ridiculous stretchy arms and legs should be more than enough to handle flyers. Not that he can't jump hundreds of feet into the air with relative ease, anyways.
And really, flight's not something that's going to magically even up a somewhat lopsided matchup. To use a comic draft analogy, Superman has flight. Thanos? No such luck. But just because he has flight, that doesn't mean that Supes is going to beat Thanos (provided we're dealing with competent writers). It's just not gonna happen. Flight doesn't put him on Thanos' level. And as to whether or not Conner is a team-buster, that shouldn't matter. Given the teams we have now in the comic draft, Thanos wouldn't be a team-buster, either. But he's still too powerful for the draft.
Anyways, Willow... I think we can keep Willow, but not as she currently is. Simple solution: Just don't allow the season 8 comics to be considered. Yeah, they're a canon continuation of the series, but it should still be easy enough to just not allow it to be taken into account for Willow (Everyone else would be fine to use the comics for feats, methinks. Including everyone from Angel "season 6".).
Or actually, take it one step further. Cut her off at a very specific spot from season 6. Right before she absorbs Giles' "borrowed power" of an entire coven of witches. Because that's the point where her power level simply becomes too much.
Because, yeah, in "season 8", she's got this obscene power level, and she's no longer holding back at all. She's not taking it easy for fear of going dark again, and that's just downright scary (Yes, she was kinda... captured in the comic, but that was by Amy, another witch who, while not as talented as Willow, is very, very powerful herself, and she was "prepped", and with all their past history Amy would know most of Willow's tricks. Hey, even Iron Man gets captured by the Mandarin on occasion. Doesn't mean he's any less of a badass, or inferior in any way.) And cutting off all of season 7 is no big deal, but for 99% of it, Willow was all pertirfied of using her power, and her abilities were extremely limited because of it. I kinda doubt anyone would actually want season 7 Willow.
So, would this specific cutoff technically mean that Willow, if taken at her peak, would be a villain? Uh... kind of, yeah. And personally, I don't see that as a problem. I think the villain teams sorta need all the help they can get. And while season 6 Dark Willow is definitely a powerhouse in the draft, I don't think she's unmanagable.
And yeah, keep Pinhead, IMO. He's another top-tier pick, but not quite too much, I'd say.
I kinda also have to echo Hamm's thoughts on the animated and comic guys. I just... meh.
Um, what else? Oh, right. Gozer. That's one I'm really, really iffy on. There are just too many questions with Gozer. Do we follow the "rule" that Gozer has to take its form from the mind of its opponent? If so, are we seriously supposed to guess as to what each and every character on the list would think of when choosing Gozer's form? Really? Or do we go with only the known forms that its taken? That'd be the butch chick, Stay Puft, a large and moving Torb and a giant Sloar. But then, we don't even know what a Torb or a Sloar is, or even what they look like. Is it even possible to defeat Gozer itself? Because what I saw was the Ghostbusters destroying its gate. Not Gozer itself. Really, too many questions.
I'll see about digging up my list suggestions next.
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Zizz
Title: M&TV Draft Commish
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/26 3:34am
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Okay, that all sounds good. You've convinced me. So that kills two birds with one stone. We ditch Conner, and that means that those other red rangers you posted can get some light to shine in. Works quite nicely I'd say.
If you think Willow can stay up to those comics, I'd be fine with it. I'll definitely need to check out exactly when her feats cut off, but I can do that at some other time.
Agreed completely on Gozer, I had him in the same general category as Jareth for most of last draft, he's just way too iffy on all kinds of different levels.
I still want Pinny to stay though.
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DarthIntegral
Title: Manager
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Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/26 9:58am
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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I just want to offer a moment of silence for the Beast List.
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EmpireForever
Title: Awesomesauce Census & Games mod and definite girl
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/26 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Godzilla/Megazord/Mech draft, anyone?
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DarthIntegral
Title: Manager
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Date Posted:
5/26 12:15pm
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RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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I'd have to be convinced we could get a list big enough, but I'd be game to at least consider it.
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halibut gave me 15 respect points
I think he's just trying to bribe his way towards victory in Forum Feud
Sey's big brother
"Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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Aragorn327
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/26 3:53pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
- Date Edited:
5/26 3:56pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Aragorn327
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Stargate. We've got 14 series worth of material here. I've summed up the major draftable guys here. Jacob and Tomin would be the two easilest cut. *shrug*
Stargate SG-1
Jack O'Neill
Samantha Carter
Daniel Jackson
Teal'c
Cameron Mitchell
Vala Mal Doran
Jonas Quinn
SG-1 Others:
Bra'tac
Jacob Carter
Tomin
SG-1 Enemies:
Ba'al
Replicarter
Apophis
Anubis
Doci
Atlantis
John Sheppard
Aidan Ford
Ronon Dex
Rodney McKay
Teyla Emmagan
Atlantis Enemies
Todd
Michael Kenmore
Acastus Kolya
Tech: This is a pretty useful resource. It's an omnipedia with a small write-up on most characters and technologies.
Human tech: Standard weaponry, most oft used = P-90.
Energy weaponry: Lots.
Stun weaponry: Lots.
Sonic grenades
Personal healing devices--only useable by those with either a Goa'uld symbiote or the Ancient Gene (though this can be added in with a gene therapy shot.) Not instantaneous or able to cure everything, but decidedly useful.
Personal cloaking devices*
Personal phase shifting technology*
Shield tech* (Goa'uld: stops bullets/energy...not slower projectiles like an arrow, Ancient: stops literally everything--depends on a battery, though...and they're scavanged: rare and often low on batteries when recovered)
life signs detector (maps the local area and pinpoints sentient life...need the Ancient Gene)
hologram tech: can project basically everything. huge range available.
disguise tech: specifically fit to certain people. mostly would be useful with prep against certain SG-1 members by other SG-1 members. No one else would be able to get it.
* These seem a rarer. You would not be able to equip a whole team with these. One or so people would be feasible.
They have a lot of tech available. The humans don't bring this kind of stuff on your standard mission. Prep, yes. Normal, no. Aliens tend to keep certain things on them, but the more specialized tech is still normally just a prep situation.
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Zizz
Title: M&TV Draft Commish
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/26 4:47pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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So you're saying that with prep, all of these guys could get their hands on phase-shift and cloaking devices? I just really, really hate the idea of phasing in this draft, unless we have some idea of context of it. And if it's used often, then it shouldn't really be allowed at all in my view, if only because it renders the user virtually invincible. Cloaking is far less of a big deal, because there are a good deal of characters who have the ability to be invisible. And I assume certain characters would be able to attain certain technologies easier than others.
Without much knowledge on the series, how redundant are those characters Aragorn? We don't really need an overload of Stargate characters if they're all going to be bringing the same thing to the table. You mentioned the two who could be cut the easiest, but that still leaves over 20 others, which might be a bit too much, depending on how much variety they bring.
Oh, and any chance you want to judge again, or are you more into GMing, or just sitting out?
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Aragorn327
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/26 5:51pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
- Date Edited:
5/26 6:06pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Aragorn327
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Cloaking is more readily available to the Goa'uld.
SGC: Humans in the Milky Way.
Standard human tech, captured Goa'uld energy+stun stuff, captured Goa'uld healing, some Goa'uld cloaking, shifting*, captured Goa'uld shield, hologram, disguise.
SGC Allies:
Standard human tech+Goa'uld stuff. Anything else not likely.
Goa'uld: Goa'uld stuff. Holograms.
SCG: Atlantis personnel
Human tech, Goa'uld stun tech (zat gun), captured Wraith stuff, recovered Ancient stuff.
Wraith: Wraith stuff. Some captured things.
The phase shifting thing is the biggest issue. However, it's limited to only the SGC. Atlantis people would have to fly to another galaxy to get it, and even normal SG people aren't likely to be able to get to it. Really, likely just SG-1, though the tech can be found elsewhere, no one else draftable would be able to reasonably get their hands on it in 24 hour prep time.
IIRC, the shifting tech has been used in several forms. At one point, they used a massive generator to phase Earth out so it couldn't be hit by a fleet of enemy ships. This scale thing took a long time and can't be used in this draft whatsoever.
The main thing here are captured tech from an alien race that showed up and could walk through walls and such with it. Several of the devices were captured and studied--never went into reproduction. However, some random crazy guy was using similar tech on a Jaffa world, he was invisible and killing people off. Teal'c checked out one of the captured devices and used it to hunt the guy down. Invisible, fightng on another plane. If you grab them before the shift, though, you get taken with the user.
I'll try to rewatch the episode to refresh myself on it. Still, it's limited to a point I'd allow it, but they're still plenty useful without it if it gets cut.
For this draft, only one SG-1 member on per drafted team/fight would realistically be able to get their hands on it.
Also--
Succinct list:
Stargate SG-1
Jack O'Neill (core)
Samantha Carter (core)
Daniel Jackson (core) possibly cut-able as an archaeologist, but decent in combat, planning, and such.
Teal'c (core)
Cameron Mitchell
[Jonas and Vala--useful, but would cut. No harm in offering them, but not as likely to be picked.]
SG-1 Enemies: - 2 main Goa'uld enemies. Anubis' half ascension would be hard to judge. Replicarter or Doci would be useful villains, but eh.
Ba'al
Apophis
Atlantis - the main team of SGA. Dex replaced Ford, as Ford went rogue (gaining some powers) and then maybe died.
John Sheppard
Aidan Ford
Ronon Dex
Rodney McKay - least useful combat wise, but a god with tech.
Teyla Emmagan
Atlantis Enemies - two big recurring Wraith. Kolya's been big too, but wouldn't be too useful for a draft team, I think.
Todd - focus on computers, hacking and programming and being awesome.
Michael Kenmore - Wraith/Human genetic hybrid. Very good at viruses/genetic engineering.
14-16 characters, depending on what you do with Jonas+Vala. I think Buffy/Angel is 15 chars? So SG-1/Atlantis at this number
shouldn't be horrible.
edit:
Zizz posted:
Oh, and any chance you want to judge again, or are you more into GMing, or just sitting out?
I can judge again if I'm needed, but feel bad for not being around a huge amount of the last draft. I'd rather just be a 4th/backup judge or something so I don't hold stuff up, but can be useful as needed.
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EmpireForever
Title: Awesomesauce Census & Games mod and definite girl
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/26 11:08pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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Sounds pretty manageable to me.
Aren't you kind of forgetting someone who can phase, Zizz? Someone who happens to be pretty awesome overall, in fact.
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KiwiRogue
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/26 11:19pm
Subject:
RE: Discussion Time: Let's Talk About Drafts
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When it comes to "phase-shifting", I don't recall that many devices other than the Crystal Skull (unusable), Merlin's device (unusable) and the Tollan(sp) people's one (not mentioned as acquired by the SGC, although SG-1 did use it at one stage). As for cloaks, I distinctly remember Nearti(sp) (not mentioned after its use) and the Sodan Cloaking device. The SGC have access to this one, but the fact that it emits a mildly harmful radiation prevents its use for just anyone, and when they tried to use it without the radiation dangerous creatures appeared.
Other than that, I've also forgotten if there was someone else who could phase.
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