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Author	Topic: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
Master-Jedi-Smith Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/13/02 9:13pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	Hi all. Just got in and read all your posts, and they were all great! I don't have anything new at this time. I just wanted to say that this whole discussion is going very well, and I hope we can keep it up! Latre! -----signature----- "The majority in a democracy has no more the right to tyrannize over the minority than, under a different system, the latter would to oppress the former." ------T.R.
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DARTHMOM10 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/13/02 10:09pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	"Alot of people on both sides get a little heated, and I guess I'm not used to someone nice like you being involved in debates like this." Thank you Saint_of_Killers - that means a lot to me and I'll tell you why if its okay. You are, like everyone else here in this forum and throughout the JC, are very passionate about what you believe in. I'm no different. Like I said to dustchick, I am so grateful to be able to take part in it and to be able to converse with so many different people from different places. And as I've also said before, many people have different beliefs, ideas, and thoughts that aren't always the same. Can you imagine what kind of a world we'd live in if we didn't have any type of diversity? To me, that would be sooo boring! I'm glad that we don't agree all the time ... It keeps us all on our toes!! "And certainly some atheists are paranoid, but it just seems more common with Christians to me. I used to be a Christian, and I knew many people who believed Satan was in charge of Earth and was constantly attacking them." And I can agree with you too! I think that at one time or another, everyone - no matter who they are - feel that they have fallen under attack for one reason or another. In some cases it is true (example: look at this forum. both Christian AND Atheist alike feel threatened or that someone is trying to undermind or neglect their beliefs, thoughts, or opinions). And its not just here in the U.S., but around the world. Look at Tibet/China for another example. The Buddists say they are being persecuted by the Chinese government. I respect you and value your opinion as my own. As before, I don't have to agree with you ... Just treat you with the same respect and dignity that everyone, no matter who they are, deserves. I think that many people, of all beliefs or ways of thinking don't always do that. But as with all living things, we grow and we learn .... together! FYI: I moved to N.TX to go to a university to finish my bachelors degree so that I could become an art teacher. Then I found out that I just couldn't handle all the shtuff that they (the school, state, and federal gov) were going to make me do. Since I consider myself to be a 'people-person' I switched my major to anthropology. Now, when I was studying to be a teacher, I kept up with news reports, etc and one thing that I wanted to do was to be able to talk about my beliefs and those of my students freely ... like we are here. But because of certain laws (that I learned from those reports), I wasn't going to be able to. However, I still really wanted to have an 'open' forum (not necessarily religious in nature, but diverse in every sense of the word - political, ethnic, history, etc). I made different time-lines for world events and cultures/nations, etc. I also made several signs ... Yes - religious ones to boot! I gave them away to a friend who's about to graduate and will be teaching in a private school, but I had not only Christianity, but Islam, Judaism, Hindu, Buddist, and yes ... even Atheist represented. Each had a quote and/or picture and below is the one that I chose from one of the atheist websites that I had visited. I wanted everyone to feel special no matter what they believed in, where they were from, or what they thought about one thing or another. We are all important. We all have a voice. We all have ideas, beliefs, feelings, dreams, and asperations that we want to achieve in one way or another. I can't say enough how important it is that you continue to stand up for what you know and believe in. "Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me I may not lead; Walk beside me, and just be my friend." -- Albert Camus, quoted from The Existence of Albert Camus And finally ... I know, I know ... I write "novels" whenever I post something, but I can't help it - I love talking!!! I got to thinking about all of our discussions and everyone's thoughts, ideas, history, etc. What if we didn't have a 'pledge' at all? We wouldn't be taking out "God's" name and we wouldn't be insulting or degrating anyone's belief in "no God." Would that work? Is there or could there ever be a happy medium? There must be a way .... somehow, right? I remember what I said in that "you can't make everybody happy all the time", but I still have hope that everyone can voice his/her opinions without being persecuted for what they say or believe. Should we try something like what I wanted in my classroom where everyone is represented equally? Is that possible? ?:\| PS: Master_Jedi_Smith ... what ideas do you have? Come back whenever you can ... -----signature----- Lightside Jedi Master Is gaire cabhair Dé ná an doras. God's help is nearer than the door. Sarcasm - Just another quality service I provide.
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Master-Jedi-Smith Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/13/02 10:22pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance? - Date Edited: 7/13/02 10:23pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master-Jedi-Smith
	Well actually, I thought that there could be two official versions of the POA. One with "under God" and one without. And when it came time to say it in class, they could each be said one after the other. Maybe mix them up so no one ends up saying, "The version with 'under God' always gets said first" or "The version without God always gets to go first." This way, it accomodates everyone. And we would still have the option of not having to say it at all if someone doesn't feel like saying it. That's just my idea. Call me crazy. Latre! -----signature----- "The majority in a democracy has no more the right to tyrannize over the minority than, under a different system, the latter would to oppress the former." ------T.R.
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DARTHMOM10 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/13/02 10:52pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	Master_Jedi_Orion that sounds good to me and I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as everyone had a fair say/stake in it. We've established (I think) that because we each have different beliefs, and considering that no one wants to insult or show 'preference' towards one group or another, that we'd have to make sure that it would be cool with as many people as possible. To me, it doesn't matter who says what first ... as long as it makes as many people as possible happy. Remember, we're all in this together. "This" being our great nation! FYI: You're not crazy as far as I can ... but then again, I think I'm on some pretty shaky ground right now myself. My sinus medicine is really messing with me -----signature----- Lightside Jedi Master Is gaire cabhair Dé ná an doras. God's help is nearer than the door. Sarcasm - Just another quality service I provide.
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Master-Jedi-Smith Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/13/02 11:41pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance? - Date Edited: 7/13/02 11:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master-Jedi-Smith
	You can say that again DM10! You called me Master Jedi Orion. Yeah, I'm just trying to make as many people as possibly happy as I can. The world would be a better place if we could all do that. I'm just wondering if other people would go along with it, or would you run into "We already have a pledge, so we don't need two versions of it." Latre! -----signature----- "The majority in a democracy has no more the right to tyrannize over the minority than, under a different system, the latter would to oppress the former." ------T.R.
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DARTHMOM10 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/14/02 7:14am Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	Oh Sweetie!!! I am SOOO SORRY!!!! humbly takes a long, low bow before Master_Jedi_Smith I was busy posting on several different places last nite and then I had a friend stop by and visit. "I'm just wondering if other people would go along with it, or would you run into "We already have a pledge, so we don't need two versions of it." I hate to say this, but I think that you are right ... and that is so sad! I wish people would stop and think about others more often. You know that for me, I like having "God" in the pledge, but I don't want to hurt anyone else's feelings ... If you don't mind me saying this, I don't think that is not how God would want us to treat each other. I think your ideas are good ones! Again, I am so sorry that I messed up your name! I still can't believe I did that! -----signature----- Lightside Jedi Master Is gaire cabhair Dé ná an doras. God's help is nearer than the door. Sarcasm - Just another quality service I provide.
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Master-Jedi-Smith Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/14/02 8:27am Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	No problem DM10! No problem at all. You can call me whatever you like. Latre! -----signature----- "The majority in a democracy has no more the right to tyrannize over the minority than, under a different system, the latter would to oppress the former." ------T.R.
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chibiangi Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 7/14/02 3:13pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	It is not discriminatory to remove "Under God" from the pledge because it wasn't there in the first place. -----signature----- Talk nerdy to me. mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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Angelic_308 Registered: Jan '02	Date Posted: 7/14/02 7:38pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	No. -----signature----- Jesus Loves you... He has a plan for Your life! Chairwoman of the Galactic Defenders...Level 10. Official Jedi Master of blowing things up. I refuse to be just anouther helpless victim..
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eaglejedi Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 7/19/02 2:15am Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	MJS: As one who has just graduated high school, it's bad enough to have to interrupt homeroom long enough for it to be said once. Twice? Rebellion in the classroom!! (And not just by students) 1. I would like to point out that a number of the founding fathers were not Christians but Deists, which was not uncommon among learned men of the time. Not that we have to base everything on what the founding fathers did, since as others have said, they did some things we know almost universally agree are wrong. 2. I'm sorry if any of you are clinging hard to this particular delusion... but I've noted people referring to Christian and Islamic gods as different things, and I'm afraid that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, are not as different as you sometimes act as if they are. The Christian Bible is the Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament. The Koran, I believe, is the Old and New Testaments plus the apparent revelation of the Archangel Gabriel to Mohammed in the cave. It goes without saying that the Jewish and Christian gods are one. However, unless I'm gravely misinformed, due to the truths noted above, Allah is also the same as YHVH or I Am That I Am. Or does someone wish to claim the Muslims are gnosticists? That might be interesting. 3. A slight correction: I believe it's YHVH, rather than YHWH, although I could be wrong or it could be both. Yes, personally I agree with the removal of the phrase "under God" from the pledge. Due to the capitalization of the word God, it refers specifically to the Judeo-Christian/Muslim God, known as YHVH, or I Am That I Am, or Allah. If it were "god" it would mean any god, but it is God. As stated before in this thread, it was also intended specifically (and we should look at original intent, according to the Court, I believe) to refer to the Christian God, when the phrase was illegally added in the 1950s by anticommunist hardliners. Therefore, it is in violation of the separation of church and state. I can't tell you how many people get confused between individual freedom of religion and separation of church and state. They are two separate protections, enshrined in separate clauses of the same sentence of the First Amendment. The first is the Free Exercise Clause, and the other is the Establishment Clause. So therefore, I take issue with the phrase on the basis of the Establishment Clause, mainly. The Free Exercise Clause issue, while not insignificant, is the secondary grievance. I hope you all understood me, because so many fascist teachers and school administrators have no end of trouble understanding this point. Also, the Pledge itself has a rather dubious history, and is not a good thing for you to fight over. It was started by a school teacher in the early 1900s or thereabouts, caught on, unfortunately, and eventually included an arm salute. Want to know how to do it? You raise your right arm to the flag, palm upwards. This part of the thing was removed in the 1930s- I wonder why? I'm with the Canadians on this one- I never liked the Pledge anyway on general principles. Prior to graduation, my friends and I had taken to pantomiming extreme expressions of patriotism during the Pledge, but I won't go into details. "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." -Dr. Samuel Johnson "No sir, I beg to differ, it the first." -Ambrose Bierce. Finally, the Pledge overall is a waste of time in a period in which people make too much noise anyway, and the loudspeakers only work half the time. Students need all the time they can to hear the announcements, many of which give short notice, are incorrect, or are even late, anyway. -----signature----- Council Jedi Master, Light Side Jedi Order Favorite JC User: DARTHMOM10 Love everything, for that is why you are here. Now it's let him live in freedom, if he lives like me. http://www.thehungersite.com
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DARTHMOM10 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/19/02 11:08pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	"Masterfully Done" eaglejedi!!!! I commend you on your expertise in history and for the well-thoughout manner in which you presented your argument. BRAVO!!! I think you also helped to fill-in-the-blanks on a few things for several of us (via some interesting facts). However, I must ask you how would we find a way to make both sides of the argument content? Is there a way for 'peace' in this portion of the SW universe? If you reject Master_Jedi_Smith's idea of having 2 pledges, then would you be willing to illeminate it entirely (my idea)? ?:\| -----signature----- Lightside Jedi Master Is gaire cabhair Dé ná an doras. God's help is nearer than the door. Sarcasm - Just another quality service I provide.
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eaglejedi Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 7/20/02 12:16am Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	Yes. Perhaps I was unclear on that, but I don't like the Pledge anyway for both political and practical reasons. If we eliminate it, it would irritate students less, and give them more time to hear the bulletins, so maybe they might actually turn in their senior dues on time (last year almost nobody did because the information was not announced enough and enough in advance) instead of in June. -----signature----- Council Jedi Master, Light Side Jedi Order Favorite JC User: DARTHMOM10 Love everything, for that is why you are here. Now it's let him live in freedom, if he lives like me. http://www.thehungersite.com
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Master-Jedi-Smith Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/20/02 6:08am Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	:::Claps for eaglejedi::: Nicely put. The last thing I want to do is start a rebellion! Solutions, solutions, solutions. Yes, my first solution would be to take it out of the classrooms for good, but guess who would object to that, especially right now after what happened on 9/11. Of course we all know the arguments for removing the term, just read this thread or the one in the Senate Floor. To have two different versions, you would have rebellion , waste more time, and people who think that one is good enough. In the end, I think it is good for the country to have a pledge, but it should be a pledge that is considerate to all its citizens, and therefore be neutral on religion, since everyone believes in something different. (sorry about the run on sentence. ) If that's too hard for people to understand, I'm sorry. (Note: That was not directed at anyone inparticular, nor was it meant to demean anyone either.) Latre! -----signature----- "The majority in a democracy has no more the right to tyrannize over the minority than, under a different system, the latter would to oppress the former." ------T.R.
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DARTHMOM10 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/20/02 8:53pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	I agree with both eaglejedi and Master-Jedi-Smith ... Either make it to where no one gets offended (make it neutral somehow) or get rid of it. Personally, I'd say get rid of it ... It is distracting and when I was in H.School, not many people actually said it in class, they just sort-of stood there and tried to wake-up!!! -----signature----- Lightside Jedi Master Is gaire cabhair Dé ná an doras. God's help is nearer than the door. Sarcasm - Just another quality service I provide.
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Master-Jedi-Smith Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/20/02 10:51pm Subject: RE: Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?
	I don't even remember the last time we said the pledge in school. If I had to guess, it was 2nd grade. After that, I don't remember it being said, or people even having the option of saying it. And nobody complained about anything. (That is nobody complained about it not being said, and with that being the case, nobody complained about whether or not "under God" should be taken out) Gosh, life was so simpler back then. Latre! -----signature----- "The majority in a democracy has no more the right to tyrannize over the minority than, under a different system, the latter would to oppress the former." ------T.R.
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