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Author	Topic: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
Warlord_Ken Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 1/3/03 11:35pm Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	Lars_Muul: Because that´s EU and should not be taken into account while we´re discussing film events. Wow, that's convenient. The events of the movies are tied with the EU. What affects one will affect the other. Obi-Ewan: You have it backwards. He doesn't say clones are stormtroopers. He does in fact say stormtroopers are clones, and although it may be hard to believe, that quote is meant to be taken literally. There are stormtroopers who have their own history. I'd understand if you say that all of the clones go on to be stormtroopers, but you can't say all stormtroopers are clones. And if you say that GL's word overrides EU, well that may be so, but I think it's unreasonably rude and disrespectful of the work the EU authors have done for Star Wars. MeBeJedi: If you're referring to George Lucas, I have to say this. He may not the the only word, or even the best word on this subject (he has made some bad choices). However, he is the last word, since Star Wars is his baby. That's only your opinion. So many more people other than GL have contributed to SW. I would consider SW "everyone's baby". It is ridiculous, if you take it as a scientific fact. You must realize that Lucas meant this as a clue to those fans who know of (and accept the fact that) the stormtrooper in ANH bumped his head. I've seen animated GIFs showing this on other threads, and people still don't believe it happened. Again, all the facts in the world can't shake a personal belief. If there's a genetic trait that makes you a head-bumper, that'd mean that the person would bump his head constantly. But we have no evidence how often Jango or that stormie bumps their heads. And the head-bumping can be attributed more to the similarly-prohibitive helmets, rather than some genetic trait of "head-bumping". You're trying to put 2 and 2 together to get 100. You can't use such trivial, circumstantial, and coincidential evidence. The head-bumping thing was a coincidence or a result of helmets that cuts down on the wearer's field of vision. It cannot be conclusively attributed to genetics. Thrawn used Spaarti(?) chambers to clone a Jedi. Have you even read the books? Yes. Now, whether or not the Kaminoans used these, it's not shown in the movies. I would guess that Lucas decided not to name the technology in AOTC, so that AOTC and the Thrawn Tilogy could co-exist. (Don't bug me about EU influencing GL. I know it doesn't control his decisions, but he has used pieces of it when it suits him.) What I'm saying is, if the stormtroopers were cloned at Kamino why wouldn't GA Thrawn have used them instead of running over to Wayland? Perhaps some explanation lies in the years between Ep. II and IV. Where on Earth do you think the movies come from? They're not magically sent down from Heaven! Obi-Ewan: If Lucas's word is not canon, then we should just throw the whole concept out the window, along with the prequels. Maybe Luke and Leia's mother wasn't really from Naboo. Maybe Shmi never married Cliegg Lars. Maybe there never was a Count Dooku, a Qui-Gon Jinn, or a Mace Windu. Maybe the prequels, being Lucas's word, aren't really what happened before the original trilogy. Or maybe Darth Vader isn't really Luke's father. Lucas's word gave us all these twists after the original film. Maybe they're all wrong. There's a difference between what happens in the movies and what GL says in interviews as such. If the movies say that Anakin is from Tatooine, but then in an interview Lucas start spewing BS and says that Anakin Skywalker was born in Bozeman, Montana, which explanation are you going to accept? Movies may override books, but how can what he says off-screen do that? They're not even PART of the SW continuity. Btw, we don't know for sure that Padme is the mother of Luke/Leia. Obi-Ewan: And the movies have told us so far that stormtroopers are clonetroopers and vice versa. Everyone who argues otherwise insists on believing in something happening between movies. How? But a different looking helmet doesn't mean that what's inside is different. They are so close that the continuity should be obvious. No, the only thing that's obvious is that you're jumping to conclusions. Similar/Same suit, huh? Well Jodo Cast and Boba Fett wear the same kind of suit. Are they clones, or the same person? No. Heck, even GA Thrawn wore a replica of Boba's suit. Does that make him a clone of Boba? And how does the fact that the PT doesn't say that the stormtroopers are not cloners mean that stormtroopers are cloners? That's like saying, "I never said Jabba the Hutt wasn't George Lucas's mother, therefore, Jabba MUST be Lucas's mother." -----signature----- Anakin Solo and friendship: “What are we, Anakin? A year ago you were my best friend in the world.” “We’re still best friends.” “Then the way you treat your other friends must really stink.” “Yeah…”
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 12:18am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers - Date Edited: 1/4/03 1:08am (4 edits total) Edited By: MeBeJedi
	he is the last word, since Star Wars is his baby. That's only your opinion. So many more people other than GL have contributed to SW. True, but none of these contributions go into the movie unless Lucas says so. If he feels that a suggestion does not fit in his universe, then it doesn't go in the movie. Are you trying to tell me that someone else can go over Lucas' head about what should be in the movies? This is not Congress, where a two-thirds majority vote overrides Lucas' veto. It is ridiculous, if you take it as a scientific fact. If there's a genetic trait that makes you a head-bumper, that'd mean that the person would bump his head constantly. Maybe I should have typed this part slower for you. IT'S NOT TO BE TAKEN AS A FACT. It is an inside joke, like Burt Reynolds smiling at the camera in the Smokey and the Bandit films. Here's another good example. There's a scene where you can barely see 3 tie fighters chasing an x-wing through the skies of Coruscant. Does this mean that the Imperial Forces are already attacking the Rebel Alliance? No, because it's just a JOKE! Lucas is allowed to have fun with his movies, with cameos and what-not. Think of all the THX and 1138 visual and audio jokes in the films! You are taking these facts and movies WAY too seriously. but then in an interview Lucas start spewing BS and says that Anakin Skywalker was born in Bozeman, Montana, which explanation are you going to accept? Movies may override books, but how can what he says off-screen do that? They're not even PART of the SW continuity. It's ironic that you use a made-up example to diminish Lucas' position to the Star Wars films. Lucas, like any other person, makes mistakes. Lucas, like any other person, changes his mind from time to time. When Lucas talks about his films, he is telling you what he did and why he did it. For you to say "That's not what he meant" is pretty damn funny. What if I used that logic against you? The events of the movies are tied with the EU. I'm sure what you meant to say was that the events of the EU are tied with the movies, since the movies came before the EU. Otherwise, people prior to 1977 would already know that Vader was Luke's father, etc. There are stormtroopers who have their own history. Obviously, you are talking about the clones who were first created, making fun of all that later batches. The "older" clones were acting like Dr. Seuss' The Sneetches, when it was clear that they are all the same. See, this can be done to anyone. Notice that your comments were taken out of context, and can be construed to mean anything. The fact that you are able to do this to Lucas' statements does not necessarily raise your arguments above his facts. You can't use such trivial, circumstantial, and coincidential evidence. The head-bumping thing was a coincidence or a result of helmets that cuts down on the wearer's field of vision. By this reasoning, you must be saying that Jango Fett, the "greatest bounty hunter" in the galaxy, knowingly uses a defective helmet, despite the fact that ALL of the rest of his equipment is top notch. In addition to this, knowing that the Jango Fett in this scene is CG, you must be saying that Lucas deliberatily demonstrated this fact by making the CG character hit his head on the door, exactly like the trooper in ANH. Ironically, Boba Fett, being a clone and raised by Jango, would obviously be aware of this problem, yet continues to use this same helmet. Until you or anyone else can come up with ANY REASONABLE EXPLANATION why Lucas made this "coincidence", you must realize that it's foolish to put down anyone else's post, while you dance around this hole in your own theory. EDIT Btw, we don't know for sure that Padme is the mother of Luke/Leia. While I will certainly grant that 1)this is true until Ep.III and 2)this is not impossible, you must realize that you are reeeeeeeeeeeeally going out on a limb at this point. You accuse me of using "trivial, circumstantial, and coincidential evidence" for my explanations, yet you throw in this little tid-bit, presumably with the reasoning that "Lucas hasn't said otherwise" (I say "presumably" based on 1) your prior arguments and 2) the fact that you don't explain or qualify your comment at all. Maybe you feel that Anakin and Padme getting married in the PT and Vader having children in the OT is another one of those "coincidences" that you like to exploit to suit your needs? How's this one? We never actually hear Anakin and Padme say "I do" (or whatever goes for wedding vows in a GFFA, assuming they even have weddings). Apparently, this means they don't get married, and thus do not have sex (at least, with each other). Maybe it's just a coincidence that what they were doing "looked" like a wedding in our culture. Wow, these coincidences can really go a loooong way, can't they? (Obi, before you blow a fuse at this, I am being facetious ) -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Lord_Hydronium Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 1:17am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	MeBeJedi: About the head-banging thing, exactly. To put it another way, Lucas put the head-bang in to show that the ANH ST is a clone of Jango. Whether you believe that to be the case or not, or even whether you believe it is impossible is irrelevant; the fact remains, it was completely intentional, and exists for one purpose only: to show that the guy in ANH is a clone. But you too are assuming that the clone army goes on to become the Imperial army. It is certainly hinted at in the film, but by no means confirmed. Your argument should stand up to your own logic. It never states explicitly that clone troopers become stormtroopers in any of the films. If no one is recruited in Ep III, then we have the following situation: in Ep III we have a bunch of guys in white armor who are all clones. In ANH we have a bunch of guys in very similar white armor. We are presented with two choices: either they are clones too, or somewhere in between the Empire started recruiting, and this little fact was completely unmentioned by the opening scroll or by any characters in the movie. Which is more likely? As for "it never states explicitly", does everything really need to be spelled out? Perhaps a new scene for the Ultimate Editions: LUKE: Look at all those clones! The stormtroopers, I mean! OBI-WAN: Yes, they certainly are clones! They fought in the Clone Wars, and were cloned on Kamino! LUKE: Wow, I never knew that! -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 1:36am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers - Date Edited: 1/4/03 1:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: MeBeJedi
	Thank you. Can you imagine how boring this movie will be if Lucas has to spell out every single fact. I can just see Palpatine saying "here are my clones," and then looking directly at the audience to say "you hear that, you stupid fan-boys? THEY'RE ALL CLONES!" There would be so much exposition, there wouldn't be time for any action. Maybe, we'll get two hours of C3-P0 explaining every single bit of information like he did in to the ewoks in ROTJ. Worse yet, Jar-Jar will do it (eeek!) the guy in ANH is a clone. I would not be at all suprised if someone were to say that the ANH stormtrooper is the "single last clone of Jango." Then again, you know how prevalent those "coincidences" are. -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Lars_Muul Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/4/03 2:25am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers - Date Edited: 1/4/03 2:26am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lars_Muul
	Warlord_Ken: Think of the EU as an alternate Star Wars universe. It can contradict the films sometimes, but separate EU stories can´t contradict eachother.
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Punisher Registered: Oct '98	Date Posted: 1/4/03 3:27am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	What does a dance become when stormtroopers show up? A HEADBANGERS BALL!! BTW, the EU is always contradicting itself, but it's gotten better. ESPECIALLY if you add up all of the comic book stories (Marvel & Dark Horse) and try and make them fit. You can see how screwed up it gets when you keep the adaptations of the movies in the mix! As much as I like the comics and the guidebooks, the SW galaxy is so screwed up because of the FILMS, it doesn't need the books/comics/video games to make things worse! I think all EU should have a stamp that says: WARNING! THIS STORY HAS NO BEARING ON THE CURRENT OR FUTURE STAR WARS FILMS. -----signature----- When the mob killed his family, Frank Castle went to war. Now he fights crime- - and kills criminals- - as the Punisher. And so the body count rises... http://www.thepunisher.com/archives.html http://www.superherohype.com/punisher/
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Obi-Ewan Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/4/03 7:30am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	I think all EU should have a stamp that says: WARNING! THIS STORY HAS NO BEARING ON THE CURRENT OR FUTURE STAR WARS FILMS. Oh, but how disrespectful for Lucas not to make films that perfectly fit with a series of apocryphal books! Lucas shouldn't have used Kamino then, should he? Or let Boba be a clone instead of Journeyman Protector Jaster Mareel? I guess Jorus C'Boath should have been used instead of Count Dooku. {i}How?{/i} Simple. People assume stormies are not clones because A) They've read about characters like Davin Felth--who never appear on screen, and B) they say that after the clone wars the clones were obsolete or wiped out and therefore recruitment began, but we haven't seen this happen; and many have said that no matter what happens in Episode III, they will continue to believe that recruitment happens anyway, which means it has to happen off screen, since it won't be in the movies. -----signature----- "I am very concerned about our national heritage, and I am very concerned that the films that I watched when I was young and the films that I watched throughout my life are preserved, so that my children can see them." --George Lucas
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Punisher Registered: Oct '98	Date Posted: 1/4/03 7:56am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	Okay, serious answer... no foolin' around! The clones from AOTC were accelerated... based on the passage from the AOTC novelization... the clones were about Anakin's age. I'll even go older and say they were 20. Let's assume that the ORIGINAL BATCH of clones were 20 years old, even though they were 10 in reality. According to the New Essential Guide to Characters (REVISED ED.) timeline, the battle of Geonosis took place 22 years before ANH. That means the clones from the battle of Geonosis (that survived) would be 42 years old during the time of ANH. They would be 45 during TESB and 46 during ROTJ. The clones could be Stormtroopers onboard the Death Star... but we must be realistic... the clones metabolism may be accelerated as well... perhaps for every 5 years they live, they age 10 years... that's 40 years of aging! That could mean a clone living during the time of ANH is 82! Obviously, the Empire isn't going to have either 42 or 82 year old clones in their service as stormtroopers! The clones from AOTC and the stormtroopers in the OT could be the same, but based on these facts(?), I believe this is unlikely. The Empire would realize that the older clones wouldn't be as efficent (physically, at least)and would need to be replaced. I theorize that the stormtroopers are clones from a different source, NOT Jango Fett, UNLESS, the Kaminoans kept a supply of Jango's blood, hair, etc. to extract new DNA samples from... not creating clones from clones or even creating new clones from Boba. I'm sure that cloning from other clones would probably create greater chances for defects... that wouldn't be good for business. (A copy isn't as good as a original and a copy of a copy is worse.) Then again, as with everything with SW, this is a "educated guess" and I'm sure this guess will have to be revised after Ep.3... maybe. -----signature----- When the mob killed his family, Frank Castle went to war. Now he fights crime- - and kills criminals- - as the Punisher. And so the body count rises... http://www.thepunisher.com/archives.html http://www.superherohype.com/punisher/
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Obi-Ewan Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/4/03 8:13am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	I theorize that the stormtroopers are clones from a different source, NOT Jango Fett, UNLESS, the Kaminoans kept a supply of Jango's blood, hair, etc. to extract new DNA samples from... They have many more clone embryos. Watch the tour scene. I'm sure that cloning from other clones would probably create greater chances for defects... that wouldn't be good for business. (A copy isn't as good as a original and a copy of a copy is worse.) More multicplicity logic. This isn't Multiplicity! -----signature----- "I am very concerned about our national heritage, and I am very concerned that the films that I watched when I was young and the films that I watched throughout my life are preserved, so that my children can see them." --George Lucas
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Lars_Muul Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/4/03 8:31am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	As Obi-Ewan said, there were loads of embryos on Kamino. These would be about 44 years old by the time of ANH(since they are accelerated). Wasn´t Jango around that age in AOTC? He seemed pretty fit.
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Punisher Registered: Oct '98	Date Posted: 1/4/03 9:54am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers - Date Edited: 1/4/03 9:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: Punisher
	Obviously there were still clones, Taun We stated that the full order hadn't been recieved. They still needed time for the clones to be ready and also that there would be a wait if the Republic/Empire needed more. Look as far as the Multiplicity stuff.. big friggin' deal. I never saw that movie. One would think that when dealing with genetics it would be better to have a PURE source. If you make a clone from a clone, especially an ACCELERATED clone, I would think that the cells would still have the affects of the acceleration, this could create an instability in the rest of the cloning process. For example... the clones would age twice the rate of the accelerated clones! The Kaminoans clone for profit, I doubt they would risk their business and reputation providng substandard clones, especially to the Republic. I'm not a genetist, but common sense dictates it's not worth the trouble to make clones from clones (with risks involved, ie. defects, acclerated growth, etc.) when it's cheaper and easier to clone from a new source. Could someone find a genetist? I want some real world answers for this. (NO, I'm not joking... I'm serious.) -----signature----- When the mob killed his family, Frank Castle went to war. Now he fights crime- - and kills criminals- - as the Punisher. And so the body count rises... http://www.thepunisher.com/archives.html http://www.superherohype.com/punisher/
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 10:56am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers - Date Edited: 1/4/03 11:00am (1 edits total) Edited By: MeBeJedi
	Not a geneticist, but I've done some reading. First of all, I would assume that cloning technology, like any other technology in the Star Wars universe, is farther advanced than ours. The biggest hurdle we have with cloning cells, is that they have an aging process. This was recently found a few years ago. If you clone the cell of a fifty-year-old, then the cloned cell is also fifty years old. This is one reason why there is so much interest in infant stem cells--they are the youngest cell you can get. (The other reason being that these cells are largely undifferentiated from basic cells. All cells have within them the means to become any other kind of cell, i.e. blood cell into skin cell. However, it's far easier to start with a cell that hasn't become specialized in the first place.) Now, the Kaminoans have said they've altered the cells for loyalty. Well, I would assume they've also altered them for other purposes. (Is the "accelerated aging process" a genetic trait, or an externally applied measure. Of course, this process would have to be slowed or altered at some point, or the clones would be old men by the time they're forty.) This would most likely include changing the "age" of the cell. (Basically, there's a protein that loses a part of itself everytime the cell reproduces. When this particular protein is expended, the cell can no longer reproduce, therefore it does not replace itself.) I would guess that this protein is replaced with a "full" version, or perhaps the protein is able to replenish itself, thus giving the clones the closest scientifically prossible solution to immortality. Obviously, I kept this description very simple. I don't want to dig through my room to find all these articles. If you disagree, do your own research. I would speculate, however, the Lucas may show a "weakness" to having a clone army, which would parallel the weakness of the droid army in TPM. A clone army would be effectively disabled by a single virus (since all clones would be affected quite similarly) whereas a normal army would have some individuals resistant to various strains due to physical or environmental differences. Other than the known causes and dangers of inbreeding (recessive genes for diseases, though the Kaminoans might be able to prevent this, also) there's not much of a reason not to clone a clone. That being said, however, Lucas is certainly not limited by our current scientific knowledge (see blaster, lightsabers, anti-gravity, hyperspace, etc.) and could simply introduce a "problem". Essentially, the "multiplicity syndrome" could be possible under our current standards. Whether or not this syndrome exists in the Star Wars universe is up to Lucas, obviously. -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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CBryMaster Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 11:14am Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	i think they are the same. how else do you think their could be so many stormtroopers -----signature----- I would have thought you have learned your lesson, I am a slow learner Gollum- My own My love My Force oops I mean Precious
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Die_Jedi_Dogs Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 1:56pm Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	Stormtroopers have to be clones. There are so many of them, they may be from different templates but yes they are all clones. Now all the officers and pilots and unmasked folks, well those are people that the Empire recruited/drafted. -----signature----- Palpatine: Fire at will Commander. Will: OH NOEZ!!!!!111
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TK_Four_Two_One Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 1/4/03 2:30pm Subject: RE: Stormtroopers are not Clonetroopers
	I think the stormtroopers ARE clones but the officers who faces can be seen are men who excel in their field of expertise are selected through the academys. Clones are more like lemmings IMO and will follow orders to the full but come up against a scenario they are not used to and have to think differently then they will faulter thus the need for non-clones amongst the Empire. Plus the clones are brought up to feel comfortable in the suits... cuz wot normal eejit is gonna walk about in a suit that long and also whenever its not 100% necessary too (eg on the Death Star) but a clone will.
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