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Author	Topic: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
DarthDrew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 1/9/03 12:39pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	"History is written by the victorious." -----signature----- 9 out of 10 doctors agree, if you remove our skin we look exactly the same underneath! "Supporting our troops" and "Disagreeing with the administration" are _not_ mutually exclusive concepts!
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Delance Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/9/03 2:35pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	Not really. Perhaps the separatits, but not the Rebellion. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do think the objective of the South was to separate from the Union, not to restore the Union to democracy since it was taken by a dictator. The Separatists on AOTC did want OUT of the Republic, so I guess it could be a more accurate comparisson. It would also fail because on SW both sides were controlled by the same individuals, who were acting out of self-interest, agaist both of them.
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Darth-Pales Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 1/9/03 3:33pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	I'm amused by the frequent reference to Palpatine manipulating events to reform the Republic (assuming, of course, that Palpatine is Sidious). I don't see how the moral stance (assuming you consider manipulating an inefficient and corrupt government into efficiency and unity morally wrong, as it seems many in this thread do) of the leader of a government has anything to do with the morality of the government itself. Oh, and how do we know that the Separatists were not simply replaced by the Rebellion which made the continuation of Palpatine's emergency powers necessary? -----signature----- Oh my forces are very frightful And I find your screams delightful There's no one to whom you can turn Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn
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Dark Lady Mara Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 1/9/03 3:56pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	The Separatists weren't a fabricated threat replaced by the Rebels. They were the Rebellion; they turn into Rebels after they apparently lose the engineered war that occurs between AotC and E3 and possibly continuing into E3. So yes, the galaxy was at war, and Palpatine did still need emergency powers. Is this any different from what's happening in the U.S. today, or during the Vietnam era? As I recall, the Constitution doesn't give the president the right to unilaterally declare war, yet it's happened repeatedly in the U.S. due to various loopholes, for reasons much weaker than Palpatine's. At least Palpy is fighting a war that directly concerns his governance. In Vietnam, the U.S. was fighting someone else's war. The destruction of Alderaan: As has been mentioned, Alderaan was a military target. The planet was run by one of the Rebellion's most important ringleaders, and it's ridiculous to suggest he had no support from anyone else on the planet. Innocent civilians may have died, but innocent civilians always die in war. Did you know that in the campaign against Iraq, we were bombing the houses of Al-Qaida leaders, often killing friends, family, and neighbors of these people who may have had nothing to do with the terrorist network? Again, the U.S. is no better. In many ways, we are the Empire. -----signature----- "Mara hath spoken," said Kyp. (that's a funny way to end my posts, rite? LUL) I LOVE HAT! JCC hat > life itself! http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org http://www.thehungersite.com SPOILER-FREE TILLLL EPISODE IV ~ "there aren't that many Ls in til." - farraday
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DarthGizmo Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/9/03 4:47pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	"NEVER was it mentioned that the midichlorians are hereditary." No, never mentioned directly, but the whole plot would fall apart if there was not some heriditary aspect to it. Ok it maybe possible Luke and Leia are tested in Ep3 and found to have high counts by chance, but that is pushing the boundries of coincidence isn't it? Getting back on subject. I like the idea of Obi Wan lying to Luke to recruit him to avenge Vader for his fathers "death". Something nobody has brougt up yet is that Star Wars is at heart a religious war between Jedi and Sith. There have been examples of extremists religions and cults in which people commit horrific acts and cause terrible pain and suffering and yet feel they are moraly justified to do so. Can we not treat the Sith as one of these extremists religious cults? The laws of countries are to some extent based on the ethics of the dominant religion of the government. In the OT the dominant religion is Sith so we can therefore expect the laws to be based on Sith ethics. What if everything the Empire does is acceptable according to Sith ethics? Therefore they would see that they are morally justified to take the actions they do. They would then see the Jedi and their supporters as evil, not themselves. We then see the Jedi and the Rebels as good and the Sith and Empire as evil as that is how we see them according to our ethics.
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Delance Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/9/03 7:04pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	It's not simply the issue of manipulation. It's the manipulation on self-interest. And not only that, either. It's also against the interest of the republic, with the objective of destroying the democratic regime to archive absolute power.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/9/03 7:14pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	Seeker two wrote: If either of these texts are to be believed, then the Emperor was no worse than Abraham Lincon during the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression... Just swap some names: Emperor--Lincoln Vader--Grant/Sherman Death Star--Union Army Rebellion--CSA army Leia--CSA politicians Luke--CSA citizens Han--privateers during CW Reread & then come to your own conclusions... I'm both pro-Rebel Alliance and pro-Confederate.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 1/10/03 12:10am Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	Gizmo: I've made the connection to religious war in another thread here a few months back. Delance: Absolute control? A New Hope makes it clear the Emperor is a recluse, and has little to do with the day-to-day running of the Empire. As for it being un-democratic, was Palpatine not voted emergency powers? Was the public not enthusiastic about his New Order? I also seem to recall an Imperial Senate with enough power that Vader feared their reprisals and ordered the Tantive IV destroyed. Curious, isn't it? Binary_Sunset: There you go, then. Ideological differences. Would it interest you to note that EU states that the Empire did not interfere in local government and it allowed planets to keep their social and economic systems the same? The Empire only required taxes, able soldiers, and acceptance of greater Imperial law. That qualifies as State's rights, does it not? -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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DarthDrew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 1/10/03 8:14am Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	I just thought of an interesting correlation. "The Separatists weren't a fabricated threat replaced by the Rebels. They were the Rebellion" – Dark Lady Mara “Obi-Wan Kenobi, you served my father in the clone wars…” (or something to that effect) – Leia We know that Leia’s father was against the Empire. Was he with the Separatists at that point? If not, his own actions may have enabled Palpatine to get into the position to become Emperor. If so, then our good friend Obi-Wan is a traitor. He is in the Jedi and the Jedi always represent the republic. If he fought with the separatists, then he had switched sides. GrandAdmiralJello, if you’re trying to quote Reagan, I think the quote is supposed to be “There you go, again.” To your point about the Emperor being “granted” emergency powers, you know as well as I do that he was granted those powers through manipulation behind the scenes (Thank you, Senator Binks). And don’t bring up the fact that the Senate voted for those. There are a myriad of reasons why they would have done this Sith mind control Statistical presentation (If you choose your statistics carefully enough, people will be willing to vote in anything. More behind-the-scenes manipulation There are more reasons, but they’re not forthcoming right now. Was it really a surprise to you that (a) Palpatine was voted in as Supreme Chancellor? Or that (b) he was granted emergency powers? In my theater, I believe the general feeling was “Well, we saw that coming!” Gizmo, I like your point about religion and politics. It makes me grin whenever people try to say that we in the US have a separation of church and state. The separation is paper-thin and no one seems to realize that. Great discussion, all! Keep it coming! -----signature----- 9 out of 10 doctors agree, if you remove our skin we look exactly the same underneath! "Supporting our troops" and "Disagreeing with the administration" are _not_ mutually exclusive concepts!
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Delance Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/10/03 8:31am Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	Delance: Absolute control? No, I said absolute power. That's different. A New Hope makes it clear the Emperor is a recluse, and has little to do with the day-to-day running of the Empire. Tarkin represented the Emperor. The Emperor had power to commit genonice, so did he. As for it being un-democratic, was Palpatine not voted emergency powers? Was the public not enthusiastic about his New Order? No, he was not. He betrayed the Republic and created a separatist movement. Then he used this to gain emergency powers, that he said he would wave down. But it was all lies. I also seem to recall an Imperial Senate with enough power that Vader feared their reprisals and ordered the Tantive IV destroyed. That's why Palpatine dissolved the Senate not long after. Curious, isn't it? Not even so, it's obvious.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/10/03 9:27am Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong - Date Edited: 1/10/03 9:28am (2 edits total) Edited By: Binary_Sunset
	GrandAdmiralJello wrote: "Would it interest you to note that EU states that the Empire did not interfere in local government and it allowed planets to keep their social and economic systems the same? The Empire only required taxes, able soldiers, and acceptance of greater Imperial law. "That qualifies as State's rights, does it not?" Of course, any political entity, no matter how bad, could be worse. That's a given. As to state's/planet's rights, no. This does not qualify. 1. Did the member planets of the Empire choose to join? No. They were forced at gunpoint. 2. The Empire "required taxes". In other words, a political entity not chosen by the planets steals their money. 3. The Empire required "able soldiers". In other words, it kidnaps citizens of these planets and forces them into a military existence. 4. The Empire required "acceptance of greater Imperial law". This means that, when a planet's law and the Empire's law were in conflict, the Empire's law prevailed. This is the antithesis of state's/planet's rights. Under state's/planet's rights, the laws of the state/planet would take precedence over Imperial laws.
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DarthGizmo Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/10/03 11:07am Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	Binary Sunset, The European Court of Human Rights (an unelected body) has the right to overrule the laws of a member of the European Union. Is this not an example of your fourth point?
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HighWiredSith Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/10/03 11:59am Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	George Lucas has about a fifth grade understanding of politics and was wise to make it only a set piece in the original trilogy, which was much more about the trials and tribulations of three friends and allies than it was about galactic empires and rebel alliance. Unfortunately, he has not kept himself so restrained with these horrible prequels, making the pseudo-political drama the center of his films forcing its obvious flaws and inconsistencies to the surface. Even more unfortunate is that we can't help but subject the events in the original trilogy to these glaring holes in logic and common sense and are left asking questions like, if The Republic can make an open and unprovoked attack on the Seperatists just far wanting to leave the Republic, then what is so bloody democratic about that? And why is the empire evil if they maintain a peace from the chaos left in the absense of the republic? It is also clear that Lucas has played into the Hollywood political correctness of our day, making the capitalists (bankers, traders, etc.) the evil power mongers and the dreaming idealists (the "we must continue to rely on negotiations" Nubians) the all around good guys. This further muddles the already muddy waters of this rather inconsitent and illogical collection of worlds and factions. It's best, in my opinion, to ignore the political nonsense and focus on the characters. Or better yet, pretend the awful prequels never happened! -----signature----- Want Free And Open Star Wars Discussion? Try http://forums.sciflicks.com!
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/10/03 2:03pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong - Date Edited: 1/10/03 2:05pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Binary_Sunset
	Right on, DarthGizmo. The European Union is most definitely NOT an organization that recognizes states' rights. I am very much anti-European Union. Did you hear the one about the Englishman getting in trouble with the law for selling pounds of bananas instead of kilograms of bananas? (True story.) "Hello, we're the EU here to micromanage your life for you. If you don't agree we know better than you how to live your life, we have a cage prepared."
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Darth_Bantha Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 1/10/03 2:58pm Subject: RE: A case for the Empire: Everything you know about Star Wars is wrong
	Dark Lady Mara said: the galaxy was at war, and Palpatine did still need emergency powers. Is this any different from what's happening in the U.S. today, or during the Vietnam era? The difference the President didn't create a war out of nothing in order to gain dictatorial powers. His goal was not to turn America into a tyrannical dictatorship under his rule. The President of the time certainly wanted as few deaths as possible, whilst Palpatine wanted as much death and destruction as could be created, eg. wipe them out, all of them. -----signature----- Bah, humbug.
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