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Topic:
Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 4:48pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Make that your first two entries! 
What's up with Yuranus? 
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 6:24pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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He's just making a social commentary.
As far as Luke being able to defeat Dooku, I can't see it happening. In terms of Force-strength, Luke would be in trouble. No matter what he's learned, he doesn't know how to block Force lightning with a lightsaber, so as soon as Dooku caught onto that, Luke would be toast.
In terms of dueling ability, Luke would still have problems defeating Dooku. Luke doesn't seem to have learned much about saber technique. Obi-Wan only watched Luke use a saber briefly in ANH. Yoda probably didn't teach Luke much about it either since we've seen that Yoda considers dueling a last resort and encourages Luke not to use weapons when he goes into the cave. In any case, Luke's technique is pretty bad in the OT. In both duels, he basically gets in a whacking contest with Vader. This happens to work against Vader since Vader's style of dueling relies mostly on power (both because Vader wants to use the advantage of great physical strength he gets from his mechanical anatomy and because Vader can't use too many finesse moves due to his armor restricting him). The few times Vader does use a finesse move against Luke, we see showcased pretty clearly how little Luke knows about how to respond - Vader's deft hooking move in the carbon freeze chamber disarmed Luke easily, and a similar move on the Bespin gantry disarmed Luke in a different way... HAHAHA I'm so funny!!!
Unlike Vader, Dooku has a very elegant dueling style and is quite skillful. Luke's whacking ability would keep him alive for maybe ten seconds in a saber duel.
Oh, and welcome to the boards, Fallen_Knight! 
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"Mara hath spoken," said Kyp. (that's a funny way to end my posts, rite? LUL) I LOVE HAT! JCC hat > life itself! http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org http://www.thehungersite.com SPOILER-FREE TILLLL EPISODE IV ~ "there aren't that many Ls in til." - farraday
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DARTH_YURANUS
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 7:18pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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--> No matter what he's learned, he doesn't know how to block Force lightning with a lightsaber, so as soon as Dooku caught onto that, Luke would be toast.
So how the hell if Kenobi know? Maybe he was lucky. Yoda's pretty good with the stuff, maybe he uses it on occasion. He didn't mind redirecting it at Dooku.
Seriously, Luke's pretty good at blocking stuff with the sword. Anakin only got caught because he wasn't fighting with his head. If he'd had his saber out, he'd have blocked it just as easily. Luke made a similar mistake in ROTJ. Although he was thinking with his head, he wasn't aware that Palpatine had one last ace up his sleeve.
Hey, if Luke didn't know, it's cause Yoda didn't tell him. Did Yoda neglect to inform Luke, or has Yoda never seen the Emperor use Force Lightning? (Perhaps Yoda doesn't know that Sidious and the Emperor are the same......maybe they're not!)
-->In both duels, he basically gets in a whacking contest with Vader.
Whacks on, whacks off....Vader did it too. I do love the OT duels, but Jedi and Sith sure have gotten skimpy when it comes to technique.
-->hooking move
Eh? At what point did he sell himself cheap?
-->Dooku has a very elegant dueling style and is quite skillful.
True, but he has other Jedi/Sith/whatever to pratice against. Vader's all by himself. He still knows how to wield a saber, but he loses his "finesse" after years of non-use. Too much Force-choke, if you ask me.
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 7:28pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Seriously, Luke's pretty good at blocking stuff with the sword.
No, I don't think he is. Notice that when Luke deflects blaster bolts with his saber, they go in random directions, whereas the other Jedi we've seen do this are able to make the bolts hit a target?
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"Mara hath spoken," said Kyp. (that's a funny way to end my posts, rite? LUL) I LOVE HAT! JCC hat > life itself! http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org http://www.thehungersite.com SPOILER-FREE TILLLL EPISODE IV ~ "there aren't that many Ls in til." - farraday
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DARTH_YURANUS
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 7:51pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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He's still blocking, isn't he? You're arguing technique vs. finess. Either way, he's got ability.
Blaster shots are harder to defend against than Force lighning. It seemed as though the lightning focused on (or was drawn to) the lightsaber. This appeared to be Dooku's best Dark-side move, since he immediately went to his saber afterwars. This is funny, because his "next" move with Yoda after the Force lightning was telekinesis, then the saber.
Why didn't Dooku just use telekinetics to pick Kenobi and Anakin up, and throw them off the cliff, or slam them into each other?
Sloppy, George. Really sloppy.
Anyways, Luke could have blocked the lightning if he'd kept his saber. After that, the Emperor would have been toast.
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Jedi Greg Maddux
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 7:55pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Vader's deft hooking move in the carbon freeze chamber disarmed Luke easily
He also disarmed Luke shortly afterwards, well, at least his hand.
There's no way Luke could have defeated any other Sith lord. As mentioned earlier, Darth Vader's lightsaber skills are only average at best, but that's because dueling's not his specialty.
Dooku seems to be equally adept at using the Force and lightsaber fighting, which makes him one of the few who have truly mastered both major areas of the Jedi/Sith order.
Darth Maul is unproven Force-wise. I'm sure he's talented at manipulating it, but he seems to rely on melee to carry out his orders. Which of course brings up the question as to how Obi-Wan defeated Maul, but that's another issue entirely.
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DARTH_YURANUS
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 8:13pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Your two main points: lightsabers and force use
Palpatine - no lightsaber, little use of force other than Force lightning and subtle manipulation. He can't "control" Luke, because mind tricks only work on the weak-minded. Yoda trained him for this.
Luke could block the force lightning, then cut down Palpatine because he has no saber to defend himself.
He can kill Sith Lord.
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DarthVegas
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/22/03 11:20pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Luke was an adaptive fighter.
Remember, when Anakin fought Dooku, he began to emulate his style and proved his worth by lasting as long as he did.
Luke vs. Maul: It's like comparing a marathon runner with a 40 meter sprinter. Maul would strike fast and furious. Luke would have a hard time, but if Luke held is on for the duration, he would nail Maul at a crucial point the way he nailed Vader on the shoulder (A severe blow without armor) in ESB.
Luke vs. Dooku: No contest. Dooku would win. Luke in ROTJ just did not have the skills to take on a 80+ year old Jedi master who is still fully capable of fighting. Luke would have to get very very lucky and NOT SLIP ONCE.
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DamonD
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
1/23/03 7:52am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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ROTJ Luke - lose to Dooku, have a hard time with Maul
EU Luke - 50/50 with Dooku, and he'd beat Maul.
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darth-skycrawler
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
1/23/03 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I think that a lightsabre duel s jst a reflection of how strong you are in the force. Maul is not a good saber duelist because he is an athletic man, but because he is strong in the force and has a lot of force training. Being strong in the force and being good with the saber go hand in hand.
Yoda is the most powerful jedi and is the best with a saber. Dooku is very strong with the force and is arguebly almost equaly good at Yoda with a saber. The same goes for Windu, Obi and Anakin.
Therefore if Maul is super fast at dueling its because he is extremely strong in the force. Thus it shows that Maul must have incredible control of the force. In a similar sense Vader must be very good with the saber because he is strong with the force. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the stronger you are with the force the better you ill be with a saber.
If you accept the first bit then the second aprt of my argument will prve why I don't see why Luke is that strong. Luke may have a lot of force potential, though not as much as Anakin, he still needs training to improve. We know that Anakin in AOTC is the most gifted jedi ever, yet he still doe not have a much power as Yoda or Dooku. Thus it can be deduced that the most talented force user ever even with 10 yars of force training is no much for Dooku or Yoda. So it is not logoical for Luke with just 4 years training to be able to defeat Dooku, if his more talented fathe who has had 10 years training could not defeat him. As for with Darth Maul i think that Maul after being trained from birth by Sidious will also be formidable with the force, the fact that he took two of the greatest jedi int the force and again gives me the impression that Luke stood little chane of ebating them.
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darth-skycrawler
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
1/23/03 11:36am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I think that a lightsabre duel s jst a reflection of how strong you are in the force. Maul is not a good saber duelist because he is an athletic man, but because he is strong in the force and has a lot of force training. Being strong in the force and being good with the saber go hand in hand.
Yoda is the most powerful jedi and is the best with a saber. Dooku is very strong with the force and is arguebly almost equaly good at Yoda with a saber. The same goes for Windu, Obi and Anakin.
Therefore if Maul is super fast at dueling its because he is extremely strong in the force. Thus it shows that Maul must have incredible control of the force. In a similar sense Vader must be very good with the saber because he is strong with the force. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the stronger you are with the force the better you ill be with a saber.
If you accept the first bit then the second aprt of my argument will prve why I don't see why Luke is that strong. Luke may have a lot of force potential, though not as much as Anakin, he still needs training to improve. We know that Anakin in AOTC is the most gifted jedi ever, yet he still doe not have a much power as Yoda or Dooku. Thus it can be deduced that the most talented force user ever even with 10 yars of force training is no much for Dooku or Yoda. So it is not logoical for Luke with just 4 years training to be able to defeat Dooku, if his more talented fathe who has had 10 years training could not defeat him. As for with Darth Maul i think that Maul after being trained from birth by Sidious he would also be formidable with the force, the fact that he took two of the greatest jedi int the force and again gives me the impression that Luke stood little chane of beating them.
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sergejg
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
1/23/03 9:37pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Luke had like 1 week of training. He couldn't beat Maul or Dokuu even if they had their hands tied.
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mjerome3
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
1/23/03 9:51pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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If those lightsaber duels of the OT were redone in this day and age, Luke's lightsaber technique would be flawless. Luke doesn't have the experience required to defeat Dooku. Even the young Obi-Wan in both Episode I and II would have been killed by Dooku simply because of Dooku's fencing style. Luke was able to defeat Darth Vader which says a bunch. But I do think Luke would have done extremely well against Maul. Luke would have enough power and ability to fend Maul off but not defeat him. Obi-Wan was able to defeat Maul just barely and Qui-Gon Jinn handled Maul until he was smacked in the face with the handle of Maul's lightsaber. In my book, Maul was barely able to defeat Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really pushed him. But if the son of Skywalker fought him, it would be no different. Skywalker would give Darth Maul something to remember.
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/23/03 10:14pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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"Luke had like 1 week of training."
While we don't know for sure how long he was there, he certainly didn't have as much training as Maul and Dooku (or any padawan, possibly.)
And remeber, Luke went to Dagobah at least twice, though there obviously wasn't much training going on during that last, fateful visit to Yoda.
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Valkor
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
1/24/03 12:57am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I believe Luke could have taken any of the Darths and in fact any of the jedi. Even though he was "reckless" as Yoda put it, he picked up his training faster than anyone, considering he started so late. I'm confident that Luke would have whipped Mace, Dooku, you name it. Hamill Rocks and as he says in Jay and Silent Bob strikes back,
"Don't F- with the jedi master."
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