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Topic:
Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:11am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Young Vader vs. Maul is tough. There's 2 scenarios to consider...
Movie-Palps obviously has plans for Ani. Since Dooku is working for Palps, he should know "not" to kill Ani. This would mean Dooku was playing with him, since Dooku and Yoda had a stalemate
Reality-tough call. Maul has the full weight of the Dark Side, whereas Ani has just touched on it. By the way, it just occured to me! What's up with Jedi double-teaming the Sith? Qui-gon/Kenobi vs. Maul, and Anakin/Kenobi vs. Dooku. When Kenobi's left to fend for himself, he gets his butt kicked.
Wasn't there a thread somewhere about Kenobi getting the shaft from all directions in the saga? 
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O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
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Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:13am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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"It would be great to see the train wreck that would be young Vader agains ROTJ Luke."
That was the kind of visual I originally got from Daughter's post, also. I do understand what she meant as well. Both interpretations are very funny.
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Daughter_Of_TheForce
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:16am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Good point about the double-teaming. It didn't work against Maul, so why would Obi-Wan choose to do it again against Dooku?
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Dark Lady of the DLC || http://www.darklordscouncil.com Prequel Trilogy Commentaries: Attack of the Clones (now playing) http://www.darthsheba.com/ptscripts Hayden who?
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:23am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Because there wasn't a third person to help Kenobi.
Think about it! When Obi and Ani go after Dooku, Yoda gets a funny look on his face. I always assumed he "felt" Dooku's presence and intent. Now I realize he "felt" Obi wetting his pants.
That's why he was in such a hurry to get ot Obi. Yoda was gonna lend him his [u]Depends[u/]! (Little Yoda Underoos....remember those?!?)
(BTW, I thought I'd also mention, I sometimes use a second computer monitor for really long posts. That's my secret for answering every point of another person's post.  )
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Master Salty
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:29am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I do that sometimes with my laptop and desktop.
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:34am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Well, Salty. Don't mean to get off-topic, but how much longer you staying up? (You too, Daughter)
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Daughter_Of_TheForce
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:38am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I don't know; maybe until the caffeine wears off. 
Maybe another half an hour.
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Dark Lady of the DLC || http://www.darklordscouncil.com Prequel Trilogy Commentaries: Attack of the Clones (now playing) http://www.darthsheba.com/ptscripts Hayden who?
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Master Salty
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:44am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I'm not sure. I'm looking around different sites, so I'll probably be here for a while.
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 2:47am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Yeah, I've about had it...no more interesting threads (that haven't been read several times already)
BTW, love your bio...
"SW Purist & Part-Time Basher"
Yes, even the OT has its moments...
I think I recently joined the OT Defense League, but I don't feel any different 
Oh well, time to hit the sack with baby and wifey...
Nighty-night
Oh, BTW. TAG! MS 
[Exit, Stage Left]
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 5:55am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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Ok.
Lets have a little revisit here-
Luke vs.
Darth Maul-Darth Maul is an APPRENTICE. While he might be a dazzling swordsman and an awesome martial artist, he displays barely any talent with the Force. This is not to say he doesn't have any, but it certainly would not be of the high quality Luke had.
ESB Luke- Relatively easy win for Darth Maul
ROTJ Luke- Based on the stellar performance Luke gave against Vader, even when he was holding back, I would say ROTJ Luke would win this one in a pinch.
Jedi Master Luke- Luke wipes Maul aside like a ragdoll. No real challenger.
-----------------------------
Count Dooku- Dooku is an exceptionally gifted Force user, and an even better swordsman than Maul. He seems to be a middling mix between a flashy type like Maul and a Force-Powerful type like The Emperor.
ESB Luke- I'd say Luke in this match would look like Kenobi in AOTC. Dooku would toy with him and toss him aside.
ROTJ Luke- Luke, as he was most of the fight, would last probably about as long as Anakin. However, if he went Holy Dark Side rage against Dooku, I think the old man would lose.
Jedi Master Luke- After a long, excessively cool, fanboy dreamish type duel, Luke would pull this one off. Because- he has extreme potential in the Force (according to Vader he has more potential than himself or the Emperor) and at that point he would have been fully developed, and battle tested from wiping the Empire out of the Galaxy.
------------------------------
The Emperor-
No contest here, I think Jedi Master luke would have to be Lucky to beat Palpatine in a straight fight.
Feel free to disagree with me if you like, but your opinions are no more valid than mine.
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Master Salty
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 6:06am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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I don't really see anything here that I particularly disagree with. It would be fascinating to see all these battles.
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 10:38am
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth & ;amp;amp ;amp;amp ;quot;?
- Date Edited:
1/20/03 11:31am (4 edits total)
Edited By:
MeBeJedi
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"Darth Maul-Darth Maul is an APPRENTICE. While he might be a dazzling swordsman and an awesome martial artist, he displays barely any talent with the Force."
1. This "apprentice" took on 2 Jedi simultaneously, killing an accomplished Jedi "master", and almost taking out the "apprentice"
2. "displays barely any talent with the Force." - If you mean pulling lighsabers out of snow or droids, then no, but...
-being a "Master": Even Yoda laughs when Luke calls himself a Jedi, saying that he must "defeat Vader" before becoming a Jedi. He's not a master until afterwards.
verdict: Tie - Luke is an "apprentice" until after Vader kills the Emperor, Maul is an apprentice (BTW, Vader isn't a Master until Palpatine is killed, also)
-take on 2 opponents: Maul gladly takes on both, while Luke keeps telling Vader he won't fight him, and throws down his lightsaber when confronting the Emperor.
verdict: Maul
-telekinesis: Luke - lighsabers and rocks (didn't even try to lift the X-wing!), Maul - rocks
verdict: Luke, barely. Even Vader threw stuff during the battle, and hit Luke every which way but loose
-fighting method: Luke - uses lightsaber to hit and block, Maul uses lightsaber, throwing objects, and hand-to-hand (or foot) combat alternately (for a longer period of time, and against 2 Jedi)
verdict: Maul - for stamina and variety. EDIT: Luke would be dead were it not for his saber. Maul has a variety of techniques at his disposal, including the continued use of his saber after it's been cut in half! So much for having no talent with the Force.
-jumps/flips/somersaults: both Luke (in ESB and ROTJ) and Maul do this
verdict: tie (why do you continually knock the acrobatics, when Luke uses them too!?!)
-communicates with other Force users: (good) Luke calls to Leia from a few miles out, (bad) Luke can't prevent Vader from reading his mind, putting Leia in jeopardy. [The Emperor also read his mind about the Rebel fleet, but since Palps already knew about it, I won't count that little slip.] (bad) Maul relies on holograms. (good) No one knows what the hell Maul is thinking.
verdict: tie
3. Luke would be dead if these things hadn't happened...
-Han hadn't distracted Vader, saving Luke's ass in Death Star trench
-Han hadn't risked his own life rushing out into the storm, and shoved Luke's ass into a tauntaun
-Han hadn't distracted Boba Fett, saving Luke's ass above the Sarlacc pit
-Han hadn't distracted (oops, disabled ) the force field on Endor's moon, allowing the Rebel fleet (and specifically, Lando, to destroy the Death Star. What was Luke doing? Dilly-dallying around, trying to "save his daddie" while the real fighting was going on outside the Death Star, save for the tunnel run to the reactor. Han and the Rebel fleet would have destroyed the Death Star without Luke's help/interference, "I should't have come, I'm endangering the mission!")
(Are you beginning to see the pattern here? BTW, Han isn't even an apprentice. He doesn't even believe in the Force and he keeps saving Luke. Luke even admits to "owing" Han. Hell, maybe Han could have taken Maul ) I guess you could say the stormtroopers are Vader's back-up, but I don't see him needing them so save his ass quite so often. Hell, on Endor's moon, Luke killed all the stormtroopers, and then turned himself in anyways! Those troopers got credit for doing nothing!
-Vader hadn't distracted and killed the Emperor, saving Luke's ass in the Death Star II. Hell the Emperor wanted Luke dead in the first place. The Emperor wanted all the other Jedi killed, and he got his wish. Do you think Luke would have made it to ROTJ without Vader's insistence that he be allowed to live!?!
4. The reason Maul is an "apprentice" is due to the "Rule of Two." There's always a master and apprentice, otherwise the apprentices will band together and kill the Sith Lord. Palpatine and Maul are just following the rules. This is why Vader is technically an "apprentice" until the EMperor is killed. BTW, Luke does this also..he's an apprentice to Kenobi and Yoda, as well as both times when he confronts Vader (remember, Yoda laughed)
Billy-Bob, I have no problem with you having a preference. That's cool. My concern is that your reasoning is grossly insufficient!.
You want to believe your opinion, fine. But please, stop trying to prove it with ridiculous assertions! Give me better evidence than bold-but-bland overstatements and generalizations
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Daughter_Of_TheForce
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
- Date Edited:
1/20/03 12:13pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Daughter_Of_TheForce
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No one knows what the hell Maul is thinking.
How the heck can you know? He doesn't say much, plus you definitely can't read his face!
Are you beginning to see the pattern here? BTW, Han isn't even an apprentice. He doesn't even believe in the Force and he keeps saving Luke. Luke even admits to "owing" Han.
Now didn't he say something about no mysterious energy field controlling his actions? Isn't it odd that he's where he needs to be to save Luke from certain death? He doesn't believe in the Force, but it seems that the Force believes in him.  
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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MBJ, I agree with your overall argument, but I have to take up a couple of points you mentioned.
Maul's strength in telepathic contests:
Maul's ability to resist malicious attacks by other Force-users is never tested since Jedi apparently don't use this technique. We can't assume he would do any better than Luke did in a similar situation. In fact, since using mind-reading abilities to attack others seems to be a common Sith tactic, employed by both Vader and Palpy, we can actually fault Maul for not using it against the Jedi.
Maul's acrobatics:
A lot of the acrobatics Maul employs in TPM are superfluous. Granted, he needs to be careful to keep his lightsaber away from his body because when both blades are activated, it's easy for an opponent to manipulate one blade so the other blade will slash Maul himself. Maul also needs to keep moving and confuse Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as much as possible because he is dealing with two opponents and can't afford to have both in a strong position against him simultaneously. However, Maul also shows off unnecessarily. Why in blazes does he sidekick Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan is in the middle of that twirly move with his lightsaber off to one side of his body? Obi-Wan made a mistake and was completely defenseless for a moment, but instead of exploiting it and slashing him in half, Maul just kicks Obi-Wan across the room.
Luke, on the other hand, uses a lot of acrobatics with reason. Vader's mobility is limited by his armor, his most serious weakness being his inability to quickly lift his lightsaber over his head. It makes sense for Luke to flip over Vader's head both in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB and in the throne room in RotJ because he's exploiting his opponent's weakness.
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MeBeJedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/20/03 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: Could Luke have defeated any other "Darth"?
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" Now didn't he say something about no mysterious energy field controlling his actions? Isn't it odd that he's where he needs to be to save Luke from certain death? He doesn't believe in the Force, but it seems that the Force believes in him.;) "
Damn! I knew i forgot to put something in! That was the joke I was trying to make. Thanks for reiterating.
"However, Maul also shows off unnecessarily."
Exactly my point. Luke is seriously stressed out against Darth Vader (except when Vader backs off and alllows luke to recite his lines ) Maul doesn't break a sweat! "instead of exploiting it and slashing him in half, Maul just kicks Obi-Wan across the room." He's showing off to two Jedi, and kicking their asses to boot (no pun intended.) Sure, this is choreography, but if we were to go by what we see in the films, Maul was having a blast, while Luke was getting blasted. This is why Maul gets points for variety. That's real showmanship!
"It makes sense for Luke to flip over Vader's head both in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB and in the throne room in RotJ because he's exploiting his opponent's weakness.
Absolutely well put. Honestly, it really doesn't make any difference to me, and we'll never know anyways (and I kinda fall towards the "good guys win" mentality in movies, anyways), but I wish more people gave arguments like yours, instead of simply complaining about Maul's "acrobatics", and completely forgetting that Luke displayed a few of his own! It's this kind of lack of consistency that bugs me about the arguments I see posted on the forums.
{BTW, was this pay-backs for your "Stay on the leader" post? )
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Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay"
O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history."
http://www.originaltrilogy.com
Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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