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Topic:
What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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AdamBertocci
Title: Manager: Fan Films
Registered:
Feb '02
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Date Posted:
3/23/03 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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I don't think the ESB asteroid scene is hurt by AOTC's.
Look at ESB's asteroid field. It's much more perilous! Things are smashing into each other and blowing up and stuff! It's got that exciting music behind it, and star destroyers, and bam-bam-bam!
Seeing the ESB asteroid field after AOTC's says, "Hey, kids! Remember the asteroid field chase you saw before?... What if it was TEN TIMES as tense?!" 
Rick McCallum loves you!
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Darth Jamus
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
3/23/03 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
- Date Edited:
3/23/03 2:35pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Jamus
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"Don't get technical with me"
 LOL The_Anakin_Wannabe!
"IMHO that scene loses power because since the lightsaber has been established as a weapon of defense against the lightning in AOTC, the symbolism of Luke giving up his weapon is muddled and making it look like a foolish choice instead of (one of) THE climactic decision(s) of the entire saga"
But Talz, remember, that Luke isn't excatly that "experienced" in the ways of the Jedi. Obi-Wan and the rest of the gang has had a lifetime of training and missions and would know better. Look at Luke, who had spent most of his life on Tatooine wanting to go to Toshi Station to pick up power converters for goodness sakes. Luke had a very quick training in the ways of being a Jedi, probably helped by the fact that he was the son of the Chosen One (who knows how many Midi-Chlorians Luke had to help him along), but he lacked real experience. If he had the field experience of actually being a Jedi like Obi-Wan did, he would not have thrown his saber away. He did not. All he had been taught was the importance of avoiding the Dark Side at all costs, which he did by shunning his weapon before he went too far!
You guys put up a pretty good defense for the asteroid chase argument. I agree that the one over Geonosis should have been something more original like an orbital shipyard though. Afterall, the Geonosians were weapons builders and planned to build an obital battle station!
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Trojan_Sock
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
3/23/03 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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" We get to see just powerful Vader is. With the PT, Jedi and Sith do this as second nature and I think it affect this scene tremendously."
But Vader is a Sith, and a powerful one at that, so this scene works quite well. It really underscores the difference between Vader's skills and Luke's. I prefer to see consistency in the Force powers between the trilogies for comparison's sake.
"Force throwing. Why is this diminished by the prequels? Levitation is a standard lesson that Yoda teaches Luke on Dagobah and throwing something with the Force is not that much different."
Exactly. In ROTJ, we see that Luke has mastered this skill (with lightsabers and C3PO), so now we have a way of seeing his progress.
"Force Lightening. I would NEARLY agree with you on this one."
As would I. I do like the parallels between the trilogies, but I don't want Lucas to beat us over the head with them. If Palpatine doesn't use Force lightning in Ep.III, then it will be okay. If he does, then the surprise in ROTJ is lost. We do need to keep some of the mystery. Besides, Anakin clearly comes over to Palpatine's side, so there would be no need for Palps to use it on him. Luke chooses otherwise, and using the lightning would make sense there.
"Luke has never seen Sith lightning before and it is quite possible that Yoda was so busy training Luke in the ways of the Force and how to avoid the Dark Side that he never actually described its unique and individual powers to him."
I don't think Yoda knows about Palpatine having that power either, otherwise that's one hell of an omission! This would fall in line with my belief that Palpatine doesn't use it in Ep.III. Anakin will willingly give himself to Palpatine, assuming that he will be rewarded. In ROTJ, when Vader realizes that Palpatine would have killed him had he declined to join him, (in addition to the fact that Palpatine was planning to replace Vader with Luke), Anakin realizes just how expendable he was in the eyes of Palpatine, and decides to give him the shaft.
"the symbolism of Luke giving up his weapon is muddled and making it look like a foolish choice instead of (one of) THE climactic decision(s) of the entire saga."
See, in my mind, it makes it stronger. Luke is willing to risk his life to save his father. This is the act that forces Anakin to change his ways. Luke went onto the Death Star expecting to die!
Luke [to The Emperor] - "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."
Palpatine could have had any number of unknown powers (as stated by Yoda and Kenobi). Luke had no idea what trick Palpatine had up his sleeves. Luke knew that he was placing himself completely at the mercy of whatever Palpatine had in store.
BTW, a big yes on Yoda. War didn't make him great. He was already great in the OT, and he never even swatted a fly.  That being said, it does help lend some weight to his "war" comment. At least we will be able to understand his opinion from a personal standpoint, rather than a general "war is bad" standpoint.
"In ESB Han had a broken down ship that is three times larger than Obi's starfighter. "
Exactly, and without the Force, and with a much larger number of smaller, nimble pursuing fighters as well (including the surrounding SD's and the space slug.) The AOTC chase was bad-ass, but the ESB sequence still rocks in its own, unique way. This scene is still great. Also, while I like the fact that the AOTC sequence doesn't have music, I do love the music in the ESB sequence. Both great scenes, but still worlds (asteroids?) apart.
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DarthMandarb
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/23/03 2:43pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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The scene which suffers (and only slightly) for me, is the Dagobah training scene(s) and the scene(s) where Ben tells Luke about the force. The PTs bring in Midichlorians, which Qui-Gon (and others) make them seem pivotal to 'hearing' the force and communicating with it. But Yoda doesn't mention them at all to Luke (at least not that we could see) nor does Ben. Yet both spend several lines of dialog explaining the force to Luke. It just seems like they would have been mentioned.
I know we've all debated this before, but I just really think GL threw them (midichlorians) in just to throw a monkey wrench into the EU. But that's just my theory 
Obi-Wan blocking the force lightning, I think, actually strengthens the scene where Luke gets nailed by it. Because now we know it can be blocked, and now Luke's surrender of his agression is all the more powerful ... again IMO
d.m.
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Darth Jamus
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
3/23/03 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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"The PTs bring in Midichlorians, which Qui-Gon (and others) make them seem pivotal to 'hearing' the force and communicating with it. But Yoda doesn't mention them at all to Luke (at least not that we could see) nor does Ben. Yet both spend several lines of dialog explaining the force to Luke. It just seems like they would have been mentioned"
Keep in mind DarthMandarb, that Yoda never mentions Midi-Chlorians in the PT either. Perhaps there is some differences of opinion amongst some of the Jedi as to their value and importance in the overall scheme of the Force. Maybe some view it simply as a way to find potential Jedi (Yoda, Obi-Wan?), yet do not really incorporate it into the training itself, while others think that they play a more personal and intregal part in Force use and actual training(Qui-Gon?). Remember, Qui-Gon already seemed to share conflicting views on the Force as opposed to the rest of the Jedi Council when he spoke of the Living Force and such!
The introduction of Midi-Chlorians in the Star wars universe in no way alters what we know of the Force. It is still the energy field that surrounds all living things and binds the galaxy together, which Obi-Wan had spoken of in ANH. It is simply stated that the MD's help a Jedi to know the will of the Force by speaking to you when you learn to listen to them. That is all. Perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan, by the time of the OT, have learned that relying too much on the scientific end of the process is what led to their current predicament. Maybe they no longer deem a person's MD count as important as the Jedi of the past did and therefore see no need to mention it to Luke. Episode 3 may yet address this problem, making the MD's inclusion in TPM worthwhile afterall!
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-_-_-_-_-_-
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
3/23/03 6:31pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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Yoda is a character I feel is ruined because of his duel in AOTC. One of the most magnicificant scenes in the OT was were Yoda pulled the X-Wing out of the swamp. He portayed a calm, powerful feel about him. His duel came off as a joke in AOTC in my eyes.
I have to disagree with you here. However if I had to choose one thing that has been altered and lessened by the PT, it would have to be Vader's revolation to Luke.
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TheWombat
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
3/24/03 7:53am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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I totally disagree with the comment about Yoda. I loved his fight scene. I think it had the potential to be ridiculous, but came off flawlessly in my eyes.
I loved Yoda in the OT, but in the back of my mind, I was always like "Sure, he's really wise. Yeah, he's powerful in the Force. But what can he really do? Why should anyone think of him as a great warrior? It's not like he's gonna whip out a lightsaber and whoop butt." Boy, was I wrong, lol. I think his character is now much more balanced, the sage parallelled by the warrior.
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Master_Sidious
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
3/24/03 10:02am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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Yoda is a character I feel is ruined because of his duel in AOTC. One of the most magnicificant scenes in the OT was were Yoda pulled the X-Wing out of the swamp. He portayed a calm, powerful feel about him. His duel came off as a joke in AOTC in my eyes.
I wouldn't necessarily say as a joke, but I was not a huge fan of Yoda's duel either. I would have preferred showing him in battle as a calm, controlled fighter (like Obi Wan & Vader in ANH) instead of a "frog on acid" type creature. It was a little over the top for me, but then, it was really GL showing off his CGI creation.
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Jack-D-Ripper
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
3/24/03 10:27am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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Yoda is a character I feel is ruined because of his duel in AOTC. One of the most magnicificant scenes in the OT was were Yoda pulled the X-Wing out of the swamp. He portayed a calm, powerful feel about him. His duel came off as a joke in AOTC in my eyes.
I actually think it had every potential to be exactly as you described it: a joke. And nobody was more worried about that than George Lucas. But I applaud him for sticking to his gut feeling that it would work, and ILM supported his idea brilliantly. It took a lot of guts to pull that one off. And I think it worked brilliantly. The fact that there are decidedly few dissenting voices over the Yoda duel means that it DID work, because on most other Star Wars matters, you can NEVER find ANY kind of concensus.
I admit I was extremely worried that the Yoda duel would end up undoing all the buildup of the film, and I was relieved when it worked so brilliantly. As one critic said, it provides one of the few genuine stand-up-and-cheer moments of recent cinema.
-JDR.
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I am getting rather sick of being told constantly that the SW prequels suck.
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The_Anakin_Wannabe
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
3/25/03 2:25am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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I wish people stood up and cheered when I watched it. I just heard histerical laughing, the kind of laughing you hear in a Jim Carey movie - who I dont think it funny btw. If Yoda had to fight, which I wouldn't have had him do so, I would rather seen him in a controlled fight as said above.
But Vader is a Sith, and a powerful one at that, so this scene works quite well. It really underscores the difference between Vader's skills and Luke's. I prefer to see consistency in the Force powers between the trilogies for comparison's sake.
I like to see consistencies aswell, otherwise it would end up looking like Star Trek. But I feel my main gripe with this scene is because the Jedi are made to look like super heroes in the PT. Binary Sunset started a great thread about how the Force has evolved throughout the movies. I've got to say that I agree with him on some things. The Jedi of the PT are running around at super-quick rates, their jumping hundreds of meters in the air and they are just generally made out to be superheroes. The OT, particularly ANH, showed the Jedi is a more 'respectable' light. They were far more human than what we are witnessing now. Old Ben didn't show us any levitation, so when we see Vader absolety kicks Lukes bum with it, I just felt amazed. Now that we see the superheroes of the PT, the image we got of the Jedi from the OT is degraded a little bit. They loose their spiritual and mythological feel about them. They still used Force levitation in the OT, same as Force jumping, but its not as extreme as the PT. I also understand that George wanted to show us what the Jedi were before their fall, but I felt that it could have been done differently, by showing the Jedi to more like Ben and Yoda, not like Luke's reckless ways.
I have also losed a bit of pity for the Jedi in the OT. When we heard Ben talk about how Vader wiped out the Jedi, I felt sorrow for the gaurdians of peace and justice being killed off so an evil regime could take hold. But the PT shows the Jedi as arrogant and cocky, and we start to get the opinion that they should fall, to allow a new, fresh, order to rise. I loose a bit of sympathy for the Jedi. Had the Jedi just been the tragic victims of an evil regime I would have still felt for Ben and Yoda being the only survivers of their order.
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Darth Jamus
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
3/25/03 3:35am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
- Date Edited:
3/25/03 3:47am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Jamus
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I saw AOTC 11 times in several different theatres and nobody ever laughed during the Yoda duel. [face_shocked] There were claps and a few cheers, but not laughter. People loved this battle, regardless of how we fans ultimately feel about the whole thing!
"Old Ben didn't show us any levitation, so when we see Vader absolety kicks Lukes bum with it, I just felt amazed"
So, if Jedi didn't do these things in the prequels you would be happy????  Then we would all be wondering why the heck Darth Vader can suddenly do them! There is no reason for Obi-Wan to be doing any of this in ANH, that is why you don't see it. Luke is untrained and/or being trained in TESB, that is why you don't see it. He isn't even fully trained in ROTJ. There are no Jedi presented in their hey-day in the OT, so of course you aren't going to see the amazing things that happened back when there was a whole temple teaching hundreds of Jedi from birth! The OT is a different era and the audience will be aware of it when watching the films.
"I loose a bit of sympathy for the Jedi. Had the Jedi just been the tragic victims of an evil regime I would have still felt for Ben and Yoda being the only survivers of their order"
I still have sympathy for Yoda and Ben, though for differing reasons now. They were good and wise in the PT also, but had become complacent to a degree. In the OT, they have learned a VERY valuable lesson and are intent on not repeating their past mistakes. I too thought highly of the Jedi, but now we see that they played a hand in their own fall. I like this aspect because it is something we did not see coming, something we did not expect, something fresh and new.
I will present you with one question The_Anakin_Wannabe, if the Jedi were as great as we thought in the OT then why have they been totally forgotten in the short time span of thirty years? The answer lies in the fact that their status in the Galaxy was already on a vast decline well before they actually realized it. Just look at the blatant disregard/disrespect they receive from various characters and races in Episodes 1 and 2; Watto, Gungans, Trade Federation, some of the populace of Coruscant such as the Dug that calls Obi-Wan Jedi Poo-Doo! There is a distict air that they are not THAT highly regarded by everyone!  This explains their being totally forgotten in the OT days by most of the population, who was ready to forget them thirty plus years before with a little persuasion from a man called Sidious!
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Trojan_Sock
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
3/25/03 6:47am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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"Episodes 1 and 2; Watto, Gungans, Trade Federation, some of the populace of Coruscant such as the Dug that calls Obi-Wan Jedi Poo-Doo! There is a distict air that they are not THAT highly regarded by everyone! This explains their being totally forgotten in the OT days by most of the population, who was ready to forget them thirty plus years before with a little persuasion from a man called Sidious!"
I have to say I feel for T_A_W's view on this. Jamus, while I understand (and to some extent, agree with) what you are talking about, you have to keep a few things in mind.
Most opinions of Jedi from the general public on Tatooine are indifferent at best, because 1) it is a hiding place for bad guys and 2) the Jedi have no presence there (see #1 ). Gui-gon even stated that Anakin would have been overlooked had they not been forced to land there. The Trade Federation is a bunch of money-hungry vultures, so why would they have any love for the galaxy's "policemen". Hell, according to EU, they'll stab each other in the back, and I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting Sidious off their back also. I don't recall the head gungan's attitude to the Jedi, but Jar-Jar had obviously heard of them. Also, again, the Gungans didn't like the Nabooians(sp?) either, and preferred to keep their distance from anyone non-Gungan. Lastly, I'm not going to take one dug's opinion to account for all of Coruscant's opinion on the Jedi. Dug's are mean, plain and simple (and it may have been Sebulba's cousin, for all we know.)
I did have an interesting thought, though. In ANH, Tarkin talks of Vader's "ancient religion", and how he is the last. Considering that Tarkin's Empire helped to eradicate the Jedi, his attitude seems surprisingly reminiscent and respectful (though probably more towards Vader than the religion). When he says "You are all that is left...", he must be speaking about the Jedi religion, not the Sith!. Otherwise, he would know that Vader is a Sith (and would possibly know about Palpatine as well), and that that religion is still alive.
This leads me to believe that Tarkin, arguably the second-in-command in the Empire at that time, doesn't know the true religion and/or identity of Darth Vader or the Emperor. Of course, I've always believed that Palpatine keeps these identities secret. His greatest power lies in everyone else's confusion. Why give them more information than they need to know?
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TheWombat
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
3/25/03 8:19am
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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When I saw the movie, people were loud and rowdy during the Yoda scene. Stuff like "Hell yeah!!!" and "Uh-oh Dooku, you're in it now!!!"
It was amazing!
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_Xanatos_
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
3/25/03 1:02pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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I agree with that, however I do not degrade them myself and I am not saying you have either The_Anakin_Wannabe but that is an interesting point you brought up.
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rpeugh
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
3/25/03 9:50pm
Subject:
RE: What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?
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I disagree with you about the asteroid chase. The asteroids that Han was facing were far more mobile. So they were harder to dodge. But fortunately, Han didnt have to deal with seismic charges. I can see where your coming from with your other points, but I think the scenes in which the PT makes the OT better far outwiegh the scenes in which they dont carry as much power.
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