Author Topic: Should the OT be remade??
Drewton  316 posts
Registered: Jan '09
49174_Darth Malak (91109)
Date Posted: 1/10 7:37pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
It's become obvious that Lucas has continually gotten worse since 1980. Let's look at the timeline...

1983: Giving a disappointing ending to the trilogy involving the Care Bears defeating the Empire's best troops.
1999: After 16 years, returns with the disappointment of the century that might as well be rated G. It's clear he didn't even take this seriously while making it.
2002: Makes a sequel with wooden acting that's been debated to be worse than TPM.
2005: Star Wars has now become a special effects show. Anakin's fall is quick. For just someone who became a Jedi a few months ago, it's undestandable. But for someone who's been a Jedi for more than ten years, it's later revealed that he's had a Padawan, he's the hero of the Clone Wars, and he suddenly starts killing younglings. Bah. Completely unbelievable. IMO, this was worse than the last two.
2008: Starts a series which goes back to the Clone Wars again, after a multimedia project focusing on the war which took place from 2002-2005. And he can't even remember how long the war lasts. He allows for Anakin to be given a Padawan, which is a complete misunderstanding of his character. He thinks it borders on being PG-13, when it actually only borders on being PG and everyone considers it a kids film/series. Then adds aliens to Indiana Jones.
The future: Lucas plans to have Indiana Jones V focus on Indy's son, who I couldn't care less about, and make another series lasting 400 episodes focusing on podracing and taking advantage of all the things Lucas has learned for years about CG. Sigh...

I'd certainly like to see the OT (and the PT) being remade, but not in Lucas's hands. With his continued downfall, why let him ruin a classic? He's already ruined Vader's past. Give it to someone who can add some seriousness and depth to the story, please.

 

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Darth_Laudrup  3970 posts
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47880_Grevious (313)
Date Posted: 1/11 2:26am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
I do not entirely agree with you. But i totally understand your arguement.


I wasn't that disappointed by the Prequels, but I agree that they could have been much much better, and I feel that Lucas should really have found other directors to handle the movies. Like let's say Ridley Scott or Spielberg.


I just wacthed an episode of the Clone Wars animated series, and it has been so dumped down that it sometimes feels insulting to grown ups. Yes I know that it is amímed at a younger audience, but sometimes I even begin to expect adverts for Star Wars Action Figures after the episode is over.

 

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QUIGONMIKE 
Registered: Jan '09
14355_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 1/11 9:53am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Darth_Laudrup posted:
I do not entirely agree with you. But i totally understand your arguement.


I wasn't that disappointed by the Prequels, but I agree that they could have been much much better, and I feel that Lucas should really have found other directors to handle the movies. Like let's say Ridley Scott or Spielberg.


I just wacthed an episode of the Clone Wars animated series, and it has been so dumped down that it sometimes feels insulting to grown ups. Yes I know that it is amímed at a younger audience, but sometimes I even begin to expect adverts for Star Wars Action Figures after the episode is over.


Some good points here. Although, Id argue against Ridley Scott as a director for SW films. Dont get me wrong - Im a Ridley fan, for the most part. But, his style just wouldnt work for these films. Im afraid he'd slow them down too much and go for the artsy feel when these movies are NOT supposed to be like that. Just my take on it.

 

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Darth_Laudrup  3970 posts
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47880_Grevious (313)
Date Posted: 1/11 10:15am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
You might be right about mister Scott, but the two directors I mentioned were merely examples. happy

 

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Sanctuary_Moon  992 posts
Registered: May '04
14741_Funeral Pyre
Date Posted: 1/15 8:17am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
jedimasterbac posted:
I guess what I mainly want to know is how a remake of the classic trilogy would damage the films.


Goes back to r8hitman's original post really.

Remaking the OT = doesn't hurt the original movies, if they are still available to enjoy.

Tinkering with the OT = does hurt the originals, as they are buried under ever-increasing CG additions and silly changes that Lucas "always intended" to make but supposedly never had the time or money. To rub salt into the wound, the originals are then disavowed by Lucas and only released in an awful non-anamorphic format as "bonus material". plain

 

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jedimasterbac  6256 posts
Title: CT and Fan Design Manager
Registered: Jun '04
24180_Obi-Wan Art
Date Posted: 1/15 9:30am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Sanctuary_Moon posted:
jedimasterbac posted:
I guess what I mainly want to know is how a remake of the classic trilogy would damage the films.


Goes back to r8hitman's original post really.

Remaking the OT = doesn't hurt the original movies, if they are still available to enjoy.

Tinkering with the OT = does hurt the originals, as they are buried under ever-increasing CG additions and silly changes that Lucas "always intended" to make but supposedly never had the time or money. To rub salt into the wound, the originals are then disavowed by Lucas and only released in an awful non-anamorphic format as "bonus material". plain


That's pretty much my opinion on the matter.

 

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Merlin_Ambrosius69  1969 posts
Registered: Aug '08
6602_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 1/15 9:47am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Remaking them does hurt the originals, because when they're played on TV and sold in video stores, audiences will come to accept these second-rate do-overs as the real deal.

 

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jedimasterbac  6256 posts
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Date Posted: 1/15 9:59am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted:
Remaking them does hurt the originals, because when they're played on TV and sold in video stores, audiences will come to accept these second-rate do-overs as the real deal.


Not necessarily. Unless something slipping my mind right now, I can't think of any remake where people have thought as the second version as "the real deal", even if the remake was good. More often than not, people will say something to the effect of "well the remake was good, but it certainly doesn't beat the original".

 

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Drewton  316 posts
Registered: Jan '09
49174_Darth Malak (91109)
Date Posted: 1/15 10:46am Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
jedimasterbac posted:
Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted:
Remaking them does hurt the originals, because when they're played on TV and sold in video stores, audiences will come to accept these second-rate do-overs as the real deal.


Not necessarily. Unless something slipping my mind right now, I can't think of any remake where people have thought as the second version as "the real deal", even if the remake was good. More often than not, people will say something to the effect of "well the remake was good, but it certainly doesn't beat the original".


The remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" is a good example.

 

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Merlin_Ambrosius69  1969 posts
Registered: Aug '08
6602_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 1/15 2:16pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
I can't think of any remake where people have thought as the second version as "the real deal", even if the remake was good.


The Wizard of Oz (1939). Frankenstein (1932). Dracula (1931). The Thing (1981). Scarface (1983). The Mummy (1999). Casino Royale (2006). Disney's Beauty & the Beast (1991). The Lord of the Rings (2001-2003). Battlestar Galactica (TV, 2000s).

All the above are remakes. All are now considered the 'de facto' version of the work in question. Granted, these example are all (arguably) superior to the originals, which is in part why they've replaced the earlier versions in the public's mind.

But this happens with inferior, or even passably adequate, remakes as well:

Disney's Tarzan (1996). Vanilla Sky (2001). A Fistful of Dollars (196?). Ocean's Eleven (200?). The Manchurian Candidate (200?). The Ring (200?).

Remakes of the OT films have a high probability of being a) inferior to the originals, and, worse, b) replacements in the public imagination over the superior originals -- simply because they would be newer, cast with hearththrobby young actors, and loaded down with fantabulous CGI effects.

Come to your senses, fellow fans! This is a horrendous idea fueled by wishful (and clouded) thinking.

 

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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon  7517 posts
Registered: Dec '00
17824_Kieran Halcyon
Date Posted: 1/15 3:08pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted:
But this happens with inferior, or even passably adequate, remakes as well:

Disney's Tarzan (1996). Vanilla Sky (2001). A Fistful of Dollars (196?). Ocean's Eleven (200?). The Manchurian Candidate (200?). The Ring (200?).

Remakes of the OT films have a high probability of being a) inferior to the originals, and, worse, b) replacements in the public imagination over the superior originals -- simply because they would be newer, cast with hearththrobby young actors, and loaded down with fantabulous CGI effects.


Disney's Tarzan - No one I know of over the age of 12 doesn't realize that this, like nearly every other Disney feature, is simply Disney's take on a classic story that has been told and retold numerous times. In fact, look at the counter-example of Peter Pan: the live-action version did nothing to supplant the classic cartoon.

Vanilla Sky/The Ring - Both were originally foreign films that had limited mainstream appeal due to the American chant of "I don't go to the movies to read [subtitles]!" In fact, I'd argue that more non-foreign-film-fans checked out Ringu due to its being the inspiration for The Ring than ever would have if the remake hadn't happened. The same goes for The Departed/Infernal Affairs.

A Fistful of Dollars - This also falls under the heading of foreign original remade for American audiences (though produced in a foreign language and dubbed over in English - those Spaghetti Westerns had a crazy setup. I'd also argue that it's enough of a clever re-imagining that it gets to stand apart as something more than just a flat-out remake. Also, I'd counter-example with the Magnificent Seven, which basically re-did Seven Samurai the same way Dollars re-did Yojimbo - Seven Samurai's place in the annals of film has remained strong and perhaps even grown, while The Magnificent Seven has become more of a dated relic.

Ocean's Eleven/Manchurian Candidate - Both of these films were advertised so heavily AS remakes ("Are Clooney, Pitt, and Damon the new Rat Pack?" "Where do we find Soviet-era levels of paranoia in today's world?") that anyone who missed the train on that probably also didn't realize that PJ's Kong was a remake.


Merlin, I think you're confused about which option is going to make people forget what "Star Wars" really is or at least once was. If you remake Casablanca ten times, the original film is still going to be the same as it ever was. If instead of remaking Casablanca you make digital alterations to the image, sound and story to make it fit into a revamped continuity (or even to "fix" 66-year-old "errors"), you destroy the film and its place in history.

With a remake, kids in the future can say "This is NEW Star Wars" and look back at the films that changed movie history and say "That's OLD Star Wars". Lucas, on the other hand, wants 'Star Wars' to be a singular, malleable catch-all and by saying "That's what it was supposed to be all along" he's attempting to destroy even the possibility to look at the very different versions of Star Wars ca. 1980 vs. 2008 and say "That's what Star Wars is now; this is what it was like THEN."

 

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Merlin_Ambrosius69  1969 posts
Registered: Aug '08
6602_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 1/15 3:40pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:


Disney's Tarzan - No one I know of over the age of 12 doesn't realize that this, like nearly every other Disney feature, is simply Disney's take on a classic story that has been told and retold numerous times. In fact, look at the counter-example of Peter Pan: the live-action version did nothing to supplant the classic cartoon.


But kids under 12 will one day (quite soon!) be adults over 25. The Tarzan films of yesteryear will fall by the wayside (except on the various Classic Movie channels, watched almost exclusively by the elderly) in deference to this skinny, dreadlocked, hook-nosed kiddie cartoon version of the once-awesome Ape-Man. This skinny hook-nose will replace/is replacing the superior (if dated) Weismuller movies, the Barker greats, the excellent Filmation series, and Chris Lambert's book-accurate (if once again, skinny) Greystoke.

Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Vanilla Sky/The Ring - Both were originally foreign films that had limited mainstream appeal due to the American chant of "I don't go to the movies to read [subtitles]!" In fact, I'd argue that more non-foreign-film-fans checked out Ringu due to its being the inspiration for The Ring than ever would have if the remake hadn't happened. The same goes for The Departed/Infernal Affairs.


Okay, but they're still remakes that have supplanted the originals in the mind of the public. That is my only point here.

Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
A Fistful of Dollars - This also falls under the heading of foreign original remade for American audiences (though produced in a foreign language and dubbed over in English - those Spaghetti Westerns had a crazy setup. I'd also argue that it's enough of a clever re-imagining that it gets to stand apart as something more than just a flat-out remake. Also, I'd counter-example with the Magnificent Seven, which basically re-did Seven Samurai the same way Dollars re-did Yojimbo - Seven Samurai's place in the annals of film has remained strong and perhaps even grown, while The Magnificent Seven has become more of a dated relic.


Fair enough. But they're still remakes which supplanted the originals in the mind of the public, of which phenomenon jedimasterbac and Drewton both avowed they could think of no examples.

Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Ocean's Eleven/Manchurian Candidate - Both of these films were advertised so heavily AS remakes ("Are Clooney, Pitt, and Damon the new Rat Pack?" "Where do we find Soviet-era levels of paranoia in today's world?") that anyone who missed the train on that probably also didn't realize that PJ's Kong was a remake.


I should thank you for making my point for me. The public now thinks of these films as the definitive versions of these stories. If the DVD-buying public owns copies of these movies at all, it's the new versions they've bought, the new versions they see on TV, the new versions that exist in their minds.

Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Merlin, I think you're confused about which option is going to make people forget what "Star Wars" really is or at least once was. If you remake Casablanca ten times, the original film is still going to be the same as it ever was. If instead of remaking Casablanca you make digital alterations to the image, sound and story to make it fit into a revamped continuity (or even to "fix" 66-year-old "errors"), you destroy the film and its place in history.

With a remake, kids in the future can say "This is NEW Star Wars" and look back at the films that changed movie history and say "That's OLD Star Wars". Lucas, on the other hand, wants 'Star Wars' to be a singular, malleable catch-all and by saying "That's what it was supposed to be all along" he's attempting to destroy even the possibility to look at the very different versions of Star Wars ca. 1980 vs. 2008 and say "That's what Star Wars is now; this is what it was like THEN."


But the original versions exist on DVD, alongside the SEs. The tweaks have been made to line them up visually a little better with the PT. You and I may wish that hadn't happened, but as of now, there's no going back to the pre-1997 days when the public embraced the original versions of the OT films. That boat has sailed. All we can do now is hope and pray, and beg and barter, that the originals are not further sullied by having inferior remakes supplant them in the public mind and imagination.

 

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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon  7517 posts
Registered: Dec '00
17824_Kieran Halcyon
Date Posted: 1/15 4:19pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted:
But kids under 12 will one day (quite soon!) be adults over 25.


And as they mature they will come to realize that "Tarzan" is more than just a Disney movie.

And in your list of movies that the Disney version is overshadowing, you're overlooking the fact that this has already happened numerous times before. Many of the kids who grew up on the Weismuller movies didn't realize that Tarzan was a book series, and many kids who grew up on Greystoke didn't realize the Weismuller films existed! If they cared enough to look deeper, they found out about the previous versions as they grew older.

The very fact that Disney made their own version speaks to how this development is a positive thing. Disney animated features, by and large, are the "Disney versions" of classic tales. Because of the numerous remakes and adaptations, Tarzan has grown to become a mythological figure who is bigger than any ONE definitive version of his story. The same goes for Zorro: The written Zorro was supplanted by Fairbanks's Zorro who was supplanted by Tyrone Power's Zorro who was supplanted by Disney's Zorro who was eventually supplanted by Banderas's Zorro. Thanks to this process, Zorro has become a grand mythological figure, who cannot be pinned down to a singular portrayal (see also Batman and Superman, although Christopher Reeve did OWN Supes for a good decade).

Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted:
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Vanilla Sky/The Ring


Okay, but they're still remakes that have supplanted the originals in the mind of the public. That is my only point here.

Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
A Fistful of Dollars...Magnificent Seven


Fair enough. But they're still remakes which supplanted the originals in the mind of the public, of which phenomenon jedimasterbac and Drewton both avowed they could think of no examples.


But you're missing the point that in few if any of these cases did the remakes actually SUPPLANT the originals in the minds of the public - the public never knew about the originals to begin with, and in general they were never going to. No one but J-Horror buffs had even HEARD of Ringu until they made The Ring. If anything, these remakes have tended to INCREASE the audience of the originals.

A personal example: I'd never heard of Akira Kurosawa until I heard that Star Wars was a loose adaptation of The Hidden Fortress. Thanks to Star Wars's 'ripping off' of that film, I became acquainted with Kurosawa's films when I was in junior high school. If not for Star Wars, I might not have even HEARD of Kurosawa until college.

Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted:
I should thank you for making my point for me. The public now thinks of these films as the definitive versions of these stories. If the DVD-buying public owns copies of these movies at all, it's the new versions they've bought, the new versions they see on TV, the new versions that exist in their minds.


I'm not quite sure what you hope to achieve with all this talk about 'the public'. Yeah, 'the public' continues to make the endless slew of "Superhero Movie"/"Disaster Movie"/"Epic Movie" dreck a profitable venture. Does that mean the rest of Hollywood should stop making popular movies, just because a few hacks are going to make undeserved millions with their brainless 'parodies'? Of course not.

If anything, this sort of problem serves as a nice litmus test. If I'm having a film-related conversation with someone and I mention "The Manchurian Candidate" without specifying "the remake" and they think I'm talking about the Denzel movie, then I know that this person isn't really worth having a serious discussion about movies with anyway.

As long as the classic originals are widely available and affordable, I don't care how many remakes a movie gets.

The Ocean's 11 remake, while not necessarily superior in quality to the original, is worth noting in film history because it was parlayed into a series of high-profile sequels, the first of which demonstrated better than perhaps any other film ever what happens when movie stars forget that their movie is supposed to be fun for the AUDIENCE, too. The Manchurian remake, as far as I can tell, was barely a blip on the film history screen. Twenty years from now, "The Manchurian Candidate" will still refer to the original.

 

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Merlin_Ambrosius69  1969 posts
Registered: Aug '08
6602_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 1/15 5:33pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade?? - Date Edited: 1/15 5:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Merlin_Ambrosius69
Those are all excellent points! Particularly your analysis of the Tarzan/Zorro phenomenon. Certain characters and their stories are larger and more culturally significant than any one version can claim. We see the same thing happening, or about to happen, with Star Trek.

That said, I'm sticking to my guns in this instance. STAR WARS is different. It's already its own mythology. Despite what you've posted on this subject before, there is no pre-requisite to mythology stating that there must be multiple versions of the same character or story. Nowhere in Campbell or Jung's writings on myth can you find this qualification, and in fact there are many examples of myths for which only one version exists.

Also, you're putting forward an elitist idea that I disagree with. The masses make something culturally significant and lasting, not a small group of devoted cultists. If STAR WARS is going to last the ages, which I perfectly expect it will do, it's got to do so in the form in which it currently exists, which is as cinematic masterpieces, not second-rate re-makes involving dubious hearthrobby casting choices (which is exactly what would happen), re-writes of questionable taste and necessity, and an over-abundance of CG-eye candy.

 

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BaronLandoCalrissian  800 posts
Registered: Jun '06
24218_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 1/15 5:37pm Subject: RE: Should the OT be remade??
Go ahead, remake away. IF the original versions are available, who cares what the public thinks is the "real" version? You can't worry about what 13 year olds and their moms think is cool, you'll go nuts. That road leads to madness! (And pasting animated dinosaurs into 70s movies).

 

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