Jedi Council Forums - Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?

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Author	Topic: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
inkswamp Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 3/20/05 1:52am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	The good guys lost big time in TESB. They sacrificed and gained nothing. That sums up where we differ. This is the pivotal issue that goes right to core of where you and I disagree and where our ideas of darkness in a story or film diverge. They don't lose big time in ESB and they don't sacrifice much of anything at all. I don't want to make this a protracted argument because we are actually going at it from such different vantage points that I believe we're not going to see each other's point, and going on and on about various details will result in nothing. On the other hand, I can try to illuminate where we differ and where I disagree with many SW fans who perceive ESB as dark. My observation is that for the most of ESB, the characters are in no real danger which undermines your assertion that they lose big time and they sacrifice and gain nothing. That's all illusory because there are other things going on underneath. We learn that Vader wants Luke alive. Despite the ferocity of the lightsaber battle, he's in no serious danger. We learn that Vader (via Boba Fett) wants the passengers on the MF alive too. Yes, he captures them. Yes, he lures Luke, but none of them are in any real danger (except for Han during the freezing scene, and that's dispelled only a few minutes afterward.) Also, they spend most of the time running from the bad guys. To contrast, throughout ROTJ, the characters are in real danger of losing their lives and that's sustained almost from the start. To me, that seems far more dark and dangerous than most of what's in ESB. On top of that, they continually resolve to walk directly into confrontations with the bad guys. They aren't running scared as they were in ESB. Now, they've resolved to kill or be killed. They march directly into Jabba's lair. They fly directly to the Death Star and Endor, right into direct combat with the guards at the shield generator. The fleet goes directly to the battle. Luke walks right into the darkest place imaginable. So, you probably see it. We have totally different sets of ideals about what constitutes a "dark film." For you, ESB is a dark film because it meets your criteria. For me, ROTJ is for the same reason. -----signature----- LAME COMEBACK #1 - Lucas should have done it my way or it's wrong LAME COMEBACK #2 - I can't think metaphorically so it's a PLOT HOLE LAME COMEBACK #3 - Complex interpretations confuse me LAME COMEBACK #4 - Lucas must spoon-feed me every detail
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RogueScribner Title: Webmaster Or lando FL FanForce Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/20/05 2:01am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I think it'd be easier for me to come around to your way of thinking if it weren't for all the stupid humor and cutesy antics in ROTJ, but I guess we'll leave it at that. L8r -----signature----- "I find your lack of faith disturbing." - http://www.orlandosystem.com - "You can't take the sky from me . . . ."
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inkswamp Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 3/20/05 2:04am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I can't possible respond to every single person here who disagrees with my point of view about ROTJ, so I apologize. I've read them all. However, this merits a response: To be completely honest, I think your views of what constitutes "darkness" seem to be somewhat naive. If you were to see and read about the German concentration camps, then that is what I call darkness. You're shifting the topic slightly. When I say "darkness," we're talking in figurative, artistic terms, not real life. I would say that nothing in any film anywhere has ever come close to being as dark as some of the things in the real world. Nobody here is as naive as you assume. Don't be so literal. Also, I'm what you'd call a cynic at the best of times, as well as being a sufferer of depression, and if you were me then you'd understand what real darkness really was. I'm sorry to hear it, but you shouldn't assume that others haven't been through equally dark experiences (or worse.) Nobody has a monopoly on suffering. I make no habit of talking about my personal life online, but I've been through some extremely dark stuff in my life too. Fortunately, I made it out alive and now have what I consider a good life where I have the time and inclination to waste talking about trivialities like Star Wars films. I wish you the best of luck with your condition but don't make the mistake of thinking you're alone. -----signature----- LAME COMEBACK #1 - Lucas should have done it my way or it's wrong LAME COMEBACK #2 - I can't think metaphorically so it's a PLOT HOLE LAME COMEBACK #3 - Complex interpretations confuse me LAME COMEBACK #4 - Lucas must spoon-feed me every detail
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Evil_Otto Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 3/20/05 4:19am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Thank you, but I wasn't looking for sympathy, just stating that I find that ROTJ is somewhat squeaky clean and naive as far as drama is concerned. Except for the Throne Room scenes, I found it more akin the Muppt Show (bad acting and dialogue included) than Shakespearian darkness. Other than the aforementioned Throne Room scene, a scene that was originally scheduled for Ep. IX I might add, Lucas showed that maybe he has no idea what real darkness really is, which I do I'm afraid. What is it that J. Michael Straczynski (the creator and writer of Babylon 5) said on interview about creating effective drama? He said that the best drama is created when you beat-up on your heroes. And the more you put them through hell, the more and better drama you create. This is what ESB did. It put them in deadly peril (or so they thought), froze Han into "a coffee table" (to quote Mark Hamill), cut off Luke's hand (a sign that he was slowly turning to the dark side as the tree pointed out in the vision), and practically destroyed the Rebellion at The Battle of Hoth. The story really beat-up on the characters on a psychological basis as well as physically. And none of you pro-ROTJ's have still answered my question about the somewhat dubious tactics (or lack there of!) that the Rebel fleet used in ROTJ: Why is it that the Rebels would send non combat vessels into front line combat? Why is it that they'd send unarmed freighters and at least one medical frigate up against the Death Star and a possible confrontation with the Imperial Star Fleet? Unlike ANH and ESB, I saw absolutely no use of tactics on the part of the Rebels at all. If you were to have asked a career admiral like Nimitz what he would have done, then he would have told you that a combat zone is the last place he'd send virtually unarmed vessels such as these into harm's way. The medical ship, for example, would have been sent in after the battle was over in order to pick up and tend to the dead and wounded. It would never have been sent into front line combat where it would have been a sitting duck for fighters and warships. -----signature----- As evil as you can get! I'm "Berzerk" about films! The once and future king Otto has lived many lives on TheForce.net
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RogueScribner Title: Webmaster Or lando FL FanForce Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/20/05 11:18am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	The real answer is because it provides more targets for the fully armed and operational Death Star 2. L8r -----signature----- "I find your lack of faith disturbing." - http://www.orlandosystem.com - "You can't take the sky from me . . . ."
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EH_Pilot Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 3/20/05 11:23am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	The Rebels had no chance of winning. It's probably the most ridiculous example of "good guys beating the bad guys because they're good guys". Not only that, none of the heroes died, making it even less believable. I can't suspend my disbelief even that much. -----signature----- Pilot of the Emperor's Hammer TIE Corps www.tiecorps.org Golden Ewok™ Recipient x4; Trojan Ewok™ Recipient -Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero-
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Beyond_the_Stars Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 3/20/05 11:30am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	1) Chewie's Tarzan Yell--I mean, come on 2) Ewoks 3) Sarlacc's burp 4) Jedi Rocks--I know it's SE, but still. 5) Boba Fett being taken out by a blind, atrophied smuggler -----signature----- "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some would deem 'unnatural'" "Is it possible to learn these Powers?" "...not from a Jedi." "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" ---Episode III, George Lucas' personal Apology for Jar-Jar Binks
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Evil_Otto Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 3/20/05 1:55pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	And another thing. When the shuttle carrying the Rebel strike team arrived at Endor and found Executor and the Death Squadron waiting, why didn't Han say, "Ohhh s***, the Imperial fleet's here waiting for us!!! We have to turn round and tell the fleet that it's a trap!!! -----signature----- As evil as you can get! I'm "Berzerk" about films! The once and future king Otto has lived many lives on TheForce.net
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darth_jake Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 3/20/05 3:18pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 3/20/05 3:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: darth_jake
	concerning why han & co. didn't warn the alliance of the trap: they only saw the executor and two more star destroyers, something the alliance had probably calculated. the death star was relatively unprotected according to mon mothma, not completely. the rest of the imperial fleet was hiding on the far side of the planet, as the emperor had commanded in the preceeding scene. concering the "darkness level" of ESB vs. ROTJ": first of all, i have never seen ESB as the "dark one", but rather ANH as the "light" one. ESB and ROTJ feel equally dark to me (not because of the actual events, but rather because of the atmosphere of the film). the ewoks have never ever bothered me, possibly because ROTJ was the only SW film that i grew up watching. concerning the present of non-miltary vessels in the battle zone: ackbar says at the pre-battle briefing that once the shield is down, our cruisers will create a perimeter while the fighters.... why a perimeter is needed is not clear to me, but perhaps it is to prevent the emperor or other important imperials from escaping the battle. come to think of it, where is it ever said that non-miltary ships ARE actually present in the battle zone. the only time this is alluded to is when wedge says they're heading for the medical frigate. but the medical frigate could easily be equipped for battle, could it not?
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PrinceEspaaValorum Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 3/20/05 5:46pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I didn't like it as much when I first saw it. It's grown on me over time. -----signature----- "Still, Star Wars will do very nicely for those lucky enough to be children or unlucky enough never to have grown up." -- John Simon, New York, (June 20, 1977), collected in the book, Reverse Angle (1982)
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Deeysew Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 3/20/05 6:03pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I hate the fact that Leia doesn't wear the bikini for the whole flick. Would have made up for the slap-stick sillyness. -----signature----- When the saga was completed on the seventh day, George Lucas rested. And then he looked down upon his creation and said, "It is good... but maybe it needs a few more dewbacks." "It's my house to paint white and show people that colored house, then later p
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 3/20/05 6:30pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Yeah, the Ewoks may have been a bad choice but it still doesn't destroy the movie. This film has the best good vs. evil climax in history. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, beats the Throne Room battle. -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5
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threepio_mania Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 3/20/05 6:49pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I don't think a lot of people consider it a bad movie, it just takes a small step down from how great ANH and ESB. I still think ROTJ is a great film too, but it has a few more noticeable flaws than the other two. That is probably why it is picked out as being a conclusion that is not as good as the first two films. My friends and others have pointed out: 1. Ewoks. Blatant kiddie marketing. Even though wookies probably would have been cooler, the Ewoks were all right. They were obviously marketed for the kids, but they sure didn't ruin the film. 2. The Luke/Leia thing. This is my least favorite aspect of ROTJ. It just wasn't necessary, and it makes the previous kissing scenes weird, especially because Leia says that she always knew. Sure Yoda said that there was another, it could have been Leia without Leia being related to Luke and Vader. She could have been another person strong in the force. Maybe some critics found the Luke/Leia thing to be hard to swallow. But it is a sci-fi film, so over the top things should be expected (I still didn't like this one though). 3. Jabba stuff takes too long. I don't buy this, because the Tattooine scenes are interesting and they have to get Han back somehow. 4. Death Star II is repetitive. I also don't buy this one. The Death Star adds a sense of "the Rebels better hit the Empire hard now because the Death Star will finish them otherwise". What's to say the Empire didn't improve the Death Star somehow? -----signature----- Lucas saved up all the excellence for the last one.
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Brobu Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 3/20/05 9:59pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 3/20/05 10:01pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Brobu
	"he has no idea what real darkness really is, which I do I'm afraid." So to understand darkness we must all suffer from depression? Give me a damn break, sir. It's unnecessary to conjure up your illness to gain some perceived authority in a debate about the darkness of Star Wars. You suffer from depression? Big deal, that doesn't mean you know what "real" darkness is. You're overstating yourself and understating those people who have experienced things much more terrible than you have. Being depressed and, say, spending four years of your life in a concentration camp or freezing to death building a dam in a Siberian gulag, are very different things. And I'm afraid depression doesn't sit anywhere near the top as far as experiencing "darkness" goes. What a shallow abuse of a serious illness.
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inkswamp Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 3/21/05 12:50am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	1) Chewie's Tarzan Yell--I mean, come on I've listened many times. I hear a yodeling sort of yell but it's not the Tarzan yell. I always thought it was a Wookie battle-cry sort of thing, a tiny peek into Wookie culture that we got so very little of in the OT. It's strange to me that so many interpret that as a Tarzan yell. Go listen to a Tarzan yell then listen to Chewie. It's similar, but not the same. 2) Ewoks In a film as dark as ROTJ, something had to balance it. And anyway, the ewoks never bothered me. In fact, given that they initially want to roast the good guys due to some religious zealotry and behave in a tribal manner, I never viewed them as "cute." So many people get hung up on the looks. Did you react the same way to Jawas? They were cute, with high-pitched, child-like voices to boot. What about R2? He's "cute." 3) Sarlacc's burp 4) Jedi Rocks--I know it's SE, but still. I'll agree with you partly here. It looks good and certainly kicks the butt of the old version, I think it doesn't fit the tone of the film. 5) Boba Fett being taken out by a blind, atrophied smuggler Let me finish your sentence. "...by a blind, atrophied smuggler who was recovering and standing right behind Fett and being coached by his life-long friend while Fett was distracted." Why do so many people have a problem with that? I thought the ironic, undignified ending to Fett's life suited him just fine. -----signature----- LAME COMEBACK #1 - Lucas should have done it my way or it's wrong LAME COMEBACK #2 - I can't think metaphorically so it's a PLOT HOLE LAME COMEBACK #3 - Complex interpretations confuse me LAME COMEBACK #4 - Lucas must spoon-feed me every detail
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