Author Topic: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
MisterVader  913 posts
Registered: Nov '06
14718_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 6/30/07 5:32pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
redxavier posted:
You're assuming that what we see on screen in the final film is the definitive version of what the director wanted, and you're assuming the intent of the director has remained constant throughout the writing, filming and editing stages of development.

That's what everyone should assume. It makes good analysis possible. How would we know when something is supposed to be a certain way and when it was unintentional? Intent is irrelevant. You assume it was meant to be the way it is, and then make judgments solely from the work itself.

 

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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon  7409 posts
Registered: Dec '00
17824_Kieran Halcyon
Date Posted: 6/30/07 11:33pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
MisterVader posted:
redxavier posted:
You're assuming that what we see on screen in the final film is the definitive version of what the director wanted

That's what everyone should assume.


See, that's what a lot of us have done with the OOT, but ever since 1997 people have been saying that's the WRONG approach. wink

 

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MisterVader  913 posts
Registered: Nov '06
14718_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 7/1/07 12:29am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
MisterVader posted:
redxavier posted:
You're assuming that what we see on screen in the final film is the definitive version of what the director wanted

That's what everyone should assume.


See, that's what a lot of us have done with the OOT, but ever since 1997 people have been saying that's the WRONG approach. wink

Hahaha. The OOT only represents the intent of its time. It's still the right approach, though.

 

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redxavier  2514 posts
Registered: Jan '03
21408_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 7/1/07 4:55am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 7/1/07 5:04am (1 edits total) Edited By: redxavier
Zak-Zahar posted:
Redxavier, I'd hate to narrow the topic down to "Star Wars being like Serials" only. That's just not the case. Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers yes, but also the Hidden Fortress (in Episode IV, for telling the story from the point of view of two insignificant characters in the grand design of things, aka the droids), Campbell's theories (which, by the way, he knew when working on Episode IV, as explained time and time again during the commentary of Episode IV when talking about mythological motifs and so on. There is also the specific allusion to Campbell in this commentary where Lucas specifically explains that the original draft was in part inspired of Campbell) et cetera.


Again, stop relying on recent interviews and commentaries where more than 20 years have passed since the creation of Star Wars. Read the contemporary interviews. Lucas has fundamentally changed over the decades, and like any human being has confused, forgotten and condensed the history. Read those books I cited and you will learn this. As well as learning that the original draft was not inspired by Campbell at all (one of the later drafts was, notable only for the introduction of the mentor character), and that if you knew anything about Campbell's book the Hero of a Thousand Faces, you'd know it was about the Hero's Journey pattern that's common to almost every type of story like this out there. Lucas even admits any similarity was born out of intuitiveness and were coincidental. The influence of Campbell has been exaggerated over the years.

Neither Hidden Fortress and Campbell are examples of serials so why did you even bring them up as evidence? Were you just name dropping?

And you seem to have switched our positions around. I'm the one saying that Star Wars is more than just serials, and has been since about the second draft or so of the original. You're the one focusing on and exaggerating the influence of serials - citing the influence as being the reason why the acting was intentionally bad. Well that might be true to some elements such as the story and some plot devices in the prequels, it cannot be said for their acting. Yet you haven't supported this assertion with any evidence.

Zak-Zahar posted:
We're not talking about the serials' influence over the movies. We're talking about what you consider "bad acting" in the movies and what I consider, based on George Lucas' commentaries, to be the part of the original intent in making the movies. Beyond that, we're talking about what we expect from a Star Wars movie. That's in fact the real topic here, I think.


Not really... your argument appears to be that if the acting in the PT is bad, it was intended to be that way. And you're basing that on what you perceive Lucas to have said was his intent at the time of writing and directing the actors on set. I've seen no evidence of this except second hand through yourself and other fans seeking to justify why actors reknowned for their talent gave widely criticised performances. I cannot listen to the commentaries as I do not have the DVDs, so please quote away.

Zak-Zahar posted:
You are switching the tables around. You are not providing any shred of evidence at your interpretation of the acting beyond "it obviously sucks". Well it does not "obviously" if you don't have an argument to back it up. I'm still waiting for the actual arguments, my friend.


Hmm... you know they feature bad acting though. You've already admitted it by implicitly agreeing that it's not plausible or convincing, and by seeking to explain why. Your argument is that it doesn't matter, it was meant to be that way. You don't even consider there to be such a thing as bad acting in the first place! You're asking for evidence after using the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.

What we're talking about is the validity of Lucas' justification for this low standard of acting - that it's meant to harken back to the serials of old. Yet the inconsistency in the acting goes directly against the apparent intent to genuinely reflect these serials, as well as the use of well respected actors, old and young, known for their talent. A justification for why some acting is bad whilst at other times it is not rings hollow. This is why your argument doesn't work.

Again, I question whether you've seen any of these serials and actually judged the acting that is meant to be reflected. Your argument is merely to parrot Lucas in his commentaries and interviews after the fact, but you nevertheless insist you know exactly what Lucas was intending in his writing room and then again on the set with the actors. How about we go not by what Lucas said was his intention (which is notorious for shifting), but what we actually have on screen with the films?

We all know the acting is bad, even apologists for the PT know - it's implicit when they say that the 'OT had bad acting as well'. Even Lucas admits so, that's precisely why he came up with an explanation of why the throng of excellent actors he acquired for the prequels were all considered to have given the worse performances of their careers.



Mister Vader posted:
That's what everyone should assume. It makes good analysis possible. How would we know when something is supposed to be a certain way and when it was unintentional? Intent is irrelevant. You assume it was meant to be the way it is, and then make judgments solely from the work itself.


Considering the struggles Lucas had to go through with ANH, and how many directors are forced with compromise or shifting intent, I wouldn't think of it as being any other than an assumption. What's more, a writer/director has the entire proccess to go through three times - writing it, then on the set, and then on the editing room. Scenes, and whole movies, can change drastically during these stages.

I've learnt never to assume anything with Lucas. If it's not on screen and abundantly clear, then it doesn't count no matter what the man himself might say. Therefore the arena monsters are a homage to old Harryhausen movies, whereas the flat and unconvincing acting is just his dislike of working with actors and his "that'll do, I'll fix it in post, next scene" approach to directing.

Lucas is flawed, all directors are. Why is this such an insurmountable hurdle to accept?

 

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Zak-Zahar 
Registered: Jun '07
22184_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/1/07 9:09am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
In all honesty, redxavier, I do not like your tone, your insinuations and the way you constantly twist what I'm writing. Ergo, I'm giving up on this "discussion". I have no time to waste. Have a good day! happy

 

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redxavier  2514 posts
Registered: Jan '03
21408_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 7/4/07 11:59am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
Fair enough, but I suggest that when you do again state that the acting was intentionally bad to echo old serials (and therefore wasn't bad at all), you come armed with evidence to support such an assertion.

 

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They're in the right places for just the right amount of time because [George] has a gift for knowing
how long to leave a shot on the screen before you start seeing the seams.
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PrincessLeiaFan 
Registered: Jun '07
40225_Leia Organa
Date Posted: 7/5/07 5:24am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
ROTJ is a masterpiece! happy I love everything about the movie! love

 

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drg4  808 posts
Registered: Jul '05
24121_Padme
Date Posted: 7/8/07 8:25pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
A question: Apart from the two final scenes wherein (1)Luke severs his father's hand and (2) suffers the onslaught of the Emperor, what exactly is so enthralling about the Throne Room conflagration? Nearly everyone in fandom seems to eat these scenes up; even the detractors profess that the last half hour all but salvages an otherwise mediocre bookend.

What am I missing here? I mean, we have this cackling old guy who spews "Get mad...c'mon, get mad!" ad infinitum--compare this with the considerably more absorbing temptations in TPM/ROTS--and a duel that quite frankly doesn't hold a candle to the apocalypse offered up by Kershner.

I'd be appreciative if someone explained the merit of the Last Temptation of Luke.

 

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weaponsmaster14  105 posts
Registered: Jul '07
42090_Darth Revan
Date Posted: 7/8/07 8:39pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
I;d say that high expectations led people to believe ROTJ was a bad movie, though it really isn't bad at all. It's just simply average.

 

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Darth_Sidious-  482 posts
Registered: Nov '05
39862_Palpatine
Date Posted: 7/8/07 8:54pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
ROTJ isn't nearly as good as Ep IV or V. The entire time Chewie, Han, and Leia are fighting with the stupid Ewoks which looked like it was filmed in the woods, terrible atmosphere, not nearly as cool as the battle of Hoth. And again, the entire movie took place in like 3 environments. You know how adventure films are globe trotting, well Star Wars is suppose to be galazy trotting. The dialogue wasn't as good as the previous installments. Production design...what design besides the Throne Room? And the beginning, it seemed to drag on for so so long, even though I enjoyed most of it. The ending too, I loved the Throne room scenes. The beginning and ending of Return of the Jedi were good, the middle ruined everything the rest.

 

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sith_rhino  75 posts
Registered: Jul '07
6220_Bossk
Date Posted: 7/9/07 6:47am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
I don't think it was bad, but I do think it was the weakest of the original trilogy, so maybe if people compare it to the first two, it won't look as good. I disliked that the Ewoks somewhat easily defeating the stormtroopers. Really made the empire look like a joke. The film seemed to be made too much for kids, as if GL made the movie with the thought of selling toys first and making a great movie second.

Having said all that, I still love the movie. :-)

 

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JMaster Luke  2359 posts
Registered: May '00
6593_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/11/07 8:13am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
If lucas updates ROTJ and makes some ewoks CG that might make it better. Yeah they are cute, but if you show they can pull out sharp claws and jump 20 feet and slice through the armor of the troopers THEN it'd more more believable.

I mean come on these are stormtroopers. They are the empire. They defeated the trade federation which had battle droids, destroyer droids, super battle droids.

So if we saw some crazy ewoks then it'd be more believable.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10317 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 7/11/07 7:43pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
Or some Yuzzum fighting alongside the Ewoks.

That would even things a bit. grin

 

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