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Author	Topic: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
Trav_the_jedi_Knight Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 2/4/05 9:11pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	ROTJ is my favorite movie of the old trilogy. I love finales and it was a great final duel between father and son. -----signature----- "The end has come" - Gandalf "The force is forever"-Trav the jedi knight "Im a jedi like my father before me"- Luke ROTJ
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 2/5/05 12:05am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	>>This appeals to parents because we all know that it alludes to cocaine. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Darth-Adroit Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 2/5/05 11:19pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	“Actually, I'm almost certain it alludes to marijuana, given the aethetic similarities.” Touché. -----signature----- "I am altering the Original Trilogy. Pray I don't alter it further" - Darth Lucas "Look, arguing well against gushers is one thing. Arguing well against the free-thinking? That's something else." – Han “I shot first” Solo
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Darth-Adroit Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 2/5/05 11:36pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 2/5/05 11:38pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Adroit
	“I found the redemption of Anakin Skywalker overwhelming and beautifully done.” Agreed. “I have no problem with the Ewoks” One must assume that you like Jar Jar as well, but I won’t be so presumptuous. Do you also like Jar Jar? “I am glad Lucas picked Ewoks over a wookie planet.” Probably because you were not led to believe that Kashyyyk was going to be the setting for several years prior to Jedi’s release. “I was growing up in the 80's and I remember the general public concesus was that the film was fantastic.” In your demographic (you mentioned that you were four) it probably was. Just like my daughter enjoyed Jar Jar the first time she saw TPM because he was designed with her in mind. My nephew (age 10 at the time) saw Jar Jar for what he was; a comic relief character that served no real purpose. Look I’m not a total Ewok and Jar Jar hater, they had their moments, but Chewie, The Droids and Yoda were vital to the Star Wars saga while Jar Jar and the Ewoks were really marketing gimmicks. Search your feelings..you know this to be true. “But the notion that ROTJ is hated is ridiculous.” Not hated, just slightly disappointing. Ask your father what he thought of the Ewoks then ask 10 more adults that watched the OT in order as they came out in theatres. Most I have spoken to have expressed a sentiment similar to my father-in-laws, “When I saw Star Wars I wanted to run out of the theatre, jump in my X-Wing and save the galaxy. When I saw Jedi I wanted to know why the Muppets were hanging out in a Galaxy Far Far Away.” “I still would rather pop in ROTJ over ROTK in my DVD player any day of the week!” I concur. -----signature----- "I am altering the Original Trilogy. Pray I don't alter it further" - Darth Lucas "Look, arguing well against gushers is one thing. Arguing well against the free-thinking? That's something else." – Han “I shot first” Solo
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Evil_Otto Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 2/6/05 7:35am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 2/6/05 7:46am (2 edits total) Edited By: Evil_Otto
	I think when people rank ROTJ as the weaker of the three SW films, part of it is the Ewoks, another part is the rehased plot elements (Death Star 2) and another is the just plain bad choices for wrapping up plot threads (turning Leia into Luke's sister, for example). Additionally, I think many feel the acting wasn't quite up to the levels set by ESB, for the most part, and that Han and Leia's relationship was potrayed in a more childish manner.[b] How is this bad? It was hinted at in "Empire". Although ROTJ has some good ideas, they're let down critically by the dire scripting and a rushed plot. In short, if Shakespeare were alive today and saw ROTJ, he'd be sueing GL for damages to literature and drama! Sorry, but when it comes to writing sensible, mature and highbrow scripts, GL has no idea what-so-ever. And Luke and Leia's relationship as brother and sister was never hinted at in ESB. The brother and sister thing was only written into the story after Lucas decided not to proceed with his original story after making ESB. Watched ROTJ last night, and thought the same thing. I love this movie, I also love Episode I, though with that I can understand why some fans would be a little disapointed, but with this? it's strange. Why is it strange that some people dislike ROTJ, you ask? Maybe it's because some people want to be challenged by a highbrow intelligent script and plot, rather than have their intelligence offended by all these cop-outs. Leia being Luke's sister and teddy bears destroying a legion of elite Stormtroopers were just two of these cop-outs, and the idea that just one battle can destroy an empire of thousands of Star Destroyers, along with their millions of troops is stretching credibility just a little too far. One battle doesn't win a war, as it hasn't during any war in history, and neither should it have here. Making Leia Luke's sister was also stretching credibility to its extreme. I can cope with Luke (the hero) finding out that Vader (the big villain) is his father, who in turn is a major leader of a galaxy wide evil empire. Now that was what legends were made of, but for Luke to just bump into his sister out of the blue at the very same time is an impossibility. For the story to have worked properly, the hero should have been set a quest, like that envisioned for the ST, to find "The Other" (the Holy Grail a.k.a. his real sister) who would've been the key to the downfall of the Emperor and his Empire. And on a side note, the Emperor wouldn't have put himself in such danger as to go to the front lines of battle, especially in a half finished battle station that was meant as bait for the Rebels. Like any other major leader, he would have always stayed well clear of harm's way at the rear echelons of the war, in this case the Imperial Palace on Coruscant. But I would think that anyone that enjoyed Episodes IV and V, would surely like VI. Doesn't really make much sense... Not necessarily. I'm a fan of the original versions of ANH and ESB, because they unintentionally became teenage style comicbook movies, almost documentary in places, whereas ROTJ onwards were more Disney type movies more suited to the under 9's of society. And as with most kiddy movies, they tend to go out of fashion as soon as the kid in question matures, whereas teenage comicbooks don't. The2ndQuest: Well, Leia wasn't supposed to be Luke's sister- there was suppsoed to be a new character intorduced for that role during the sequel trilogy. When he condensed the ST into ROTJ, instead of introducing a new character, he made it Leia. By making the sister Leia, it gave GL an easy-out for the love triangle, instead of actually resolving it. Additionally, it created one of the narrative embarassments of the saga with Luke fawning over Leia and them kissing in ESB. This is something that could have been easily avoided. Sure, it was late in the saga and GL felt that was too late to introduce a new character, but they did with Lando in ESB and even managed to establish Tarkin for a single film. Well, you said it as well as I could've. Although, I don't think the cut scene from ESB where Luke and Leia kiss would've been damaging to what eventually became ROTJ, because they didn't know that they were brother and sister at the time. And besides, what's so big about a kiss?! It's not as if she got in bed with him and they started, well, you know. Leia hears Luke calling for her in ESB. The seeds were planted in the second film. Telepathics can interact telepathically with anyone. Luke merely contacted Leia because he knew and trusted her, and she was the only person alive at that time that could save him. If Telepaths could only interact telepathically with people of their own family, then Luke must also be related to Bib Fortuna, as well as Obi-Wan must be related to a Coruscant drug dealer and a Stormtrooper! And hearing people complain about ROTJ being kiddy is funny....considering the Star Wars films are in fact kids movies. Admittedly that's what Lucas originally made the films for...kids. But like I said before, he unintentionally made the first two movies for the more teenage market, which also happens to be more favourable to the adults as well. Umm....it's a movie about redemption and the good guys winning. Why the hell would it be a darker film than the already incredibly dark Empire Strikes Back? Quite easily actually. If you take some time out to watch some real drama, then you'll get to realise that it's not always the case where the good guys win cleanly. Most of the time the good guys undergo loses of friends and family as well to their own psychology, which as a result makes the final victory all that more dramatic and bitter sweet. Sometimes, like in the film El Cid, even the good guy dies, but for a good cause! That's drama, not the somewhat watered down and on the whole naive ROTJ. Yes, granted, Vader dies, but unfortunately the rest of the movie let the scene down, not least because most of us now know that ROTJ was 4 movies rolled into one (a.k.a. a rushed job). TESB is about as dark as a care-bears story. The only dark thing about it is that the good guys temporarily lose. Hell, it has the only romance in all three films. Before the release of ROTJ, it was indeed rumored that ROTJ would leave ESB in the shadows as far as gritty drama is concerned. It was rumored that some major characters would die, not least Han Solo. But unfortunately this was just the pre-scrapped ST ROTJ coming out, rather than the compact ROTJ with all its cop-outs that we eventually got. If the ST had been made, ROTJ would have been perfect as the darkest movie of the trilogy, because this would have been the turning point where the ST would have gradually brought the story back into the light. ROTJ would have been the point where most of the death and losses would have happened before Luke would have moved on to his quest to find his sister and the Rebel Alliance would have continued with their struggle to eventual victory over the Empire, and Luke and his sister would've confronted the Emperor all in Ep. 9. ROTJ is dark as hell. First thing we see the main character doing is Force-choking some folks. We see Leia debased, droids being tortured, a son nearly committing patricide, a father watching as his son is nearly electrocuted, Rebels dying by the thousands, ewoks being slaughtered by stormies...yes, it's a light, silly film. Do you really think droids being tortured (can you really "torture" a droid???), a few fur balls being blown away and all those thousands a Rebs that we never saw get killed is "drama"?! You seem to have lived a very sheltered life. -----signature----- As evil as you can get! I'm "Berzerk" about films! The once and future king Otto has lived many lives on TheForce.net
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murray_powers Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 2/6/05 8:02am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	two words: baby ewok -----signature----- "Also the laser beams that are ejected from the guns have no reflection on the walls. Wow! " - Darth Boberson
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Wesyeed Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 2/6/05 8:46am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 2/6/05 8:48am (3 edits total) Edited By: Wesyeed
	Which version of RotJ is everyone referring to. V 1.0 V1.5 or V2.0. Honestly I can't take all this too seriously getting all attached to the movie in any form its in because it's not finished yet. Once GL releases his next version and I find some way to acquire it, then and only then a true complaint we can make. All we have now is the sneak preview of the final edition of the trilogy. --sucks for us, but... hey, that's business.--- -----signature----- *Official Member of the CI0*
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DJ_RMC Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 2/6/05 11:11am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	ROTJ is my second favorite of the OT Empire strikes back being my favorite.
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black_saber Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/6/05 12:23pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I love ESB it my favorite. -----signature----- "Just when I thought I was out , they push me back in." I never liked micheal Jackson and he was always a looney.
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BATTLELION Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 2/6/05 7:27pm Subject: There are reasons to what was done on the VI
	Firstly, I must say that I loved Star Wars VI Return of the Jedi the best. I LOVED it. When I saw it, I was 4 (I saw it on VHS when I was four in 1988, that is) and I had no idea what was going to happen. JABBA THE HUTT. All along, Han is fleeing away from Jabba. Jabba sends Greedo. Han ran into a bounty hunter on Ord Mantell that made him want to pay off Jabba. ("I can't stay anymore" "If I don't pay off Jabba the Hutt I'm a dead man"). Jabba. We finally get to see him. And I was completely stunned by how he looked. HE was PERFECT. The epitomy of the cardinal sins of LUST, SLOTH, and GLUTTANY. he was perfect as that alien. I loved the way he laughed and talked. HE was great. one of my favorite scenes from A NEW HOPE was the Cantina with all the aliens. I missed that, and though we saw SOME aliens in ESB, Jabba's Palace was really cool to see all those aliens. Episode VI was all about the culmination of so many things. THE best ending to the Saga. The best Star Wars movie. Han finally put his priority into his friends. He was no longer concerned with profit or money or reward. he cared about Luke, Leia, and Lando. Luke showed a remarkable transformation as a confident and mature character. He accepted his destiny and went so far as to sacrifice himself for his father and for his friends to accomplish their mission to destroy the Generator. Lando changed. Gone was his trechery, his double crossing (ironic statement, isn't it?) and his dealings with the dark side. He became compassionate and wanted to redeem himself. He was a real hero. Leia was closer to Han and she no longer seemed grumpy or quick with two low-lifes from ESB and ANH (Luke was a farmer, Han was a smuggler). She really loved him. Plus, THE EMPEROR. Just the same as Jabba, we hear about "The Emperor" all over the place. We don't see him in ANH, we only catch a glimpse of him in a hologram in ESB (and I argue that the original Emperor was better than the redone one in ESB--old emperor was more devious looking when he said "Yes. Yes." THAT WAS DEVIOUS). Any way, we finally get to see who is running the show. The MAN. THE DAWG. THE EMPEROR. And, MAN, was he evil. He cared only about himself. He didn't care about Vader, Luke, anybody. He was the man who manipulated the whole system to get himself to sit in that chair. HE WAS EVIL. And I must say, his MAKEUP was so convincing, that I thought (up until 1999 when TPM came out) that the actor who played the Emperor was like 80 years old. I had NO IDEA that he was a younger guy!!! Props to the makeup people on ROTJ. What else can I say... Ewoks. I LOVE the ewoks. To this day my little brother hates them. The Ewoks are very important, not just to the plot, but as one of the THEMES of Star Wars. MAN VS MACHINE. That is one of the biggest motifs Lucas uses throughout his Classic Trilogy. MAN VS MACHINE. The rebels are more human like than the imperials. The Empire runs on Technology, while the Rebels use heroics, faith, and courage. The Ewoks represent the physical manifestation that the technology can be defeated by the spirit within. Luke beat Vader. ANAKIN BEAT VADER. he overcame his route to the dark side, his route to more machine than man. HE struggled with it in ROTJ and he overcame it. He didn't want to die with it on, either. MAN VS MACHINE. That is the purpose the Ewoks served for the movie and they did a great job of it. Listen to Lucas Comentary on ROTJ DVD and he even SAYS that. Finally, as for the CRITICS. They are never right about Star Wars. The only critic that actually appreciated Star Wars was LEONARD MALTIN. I have the VHS 1995 Edition of The Classic Trilogy without SPECIAL EDITION FOOTAGE (which I think detracted from the feel of the movie, but that's my 20 years of watching it from the 1983 perspective). In the VHS editiion is MALTIN's Interview with George Lucas. Each movie has like a 15 minute Q A session with the chief of the Force. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND AND SUGGEST IT. It is a valuable asset. Thanks, Battle Lion PS: Return of the Jedi is the best movie -----signature----- "Luke, at that speed will we be able to pull out in time?"
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JDN21 Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 3/6/05 2:04pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	For me, ROTJ's expanded use of puppets (particularly in Jabba's Love Shack) took some of the shine off the movie. That big blue thing that dances round and that little rat that sleeps on Jabba just look awful and childish. The Ewoks dont help, and when watching the DVD, I find myself skipping the Endor chapters so I can watch the much more interesting Rebel fleet vs. DS2 and the awesome exchange between Luke, Vader and the Emperor. I think the scenes with Luke on DS2 with Sidious and Vader are amongst the best out of all the OT films. Ian McDiarmid is great as the Emperor and the haunting music is excellent (and will hopefully bein Ep3). ROTJ is more entertaining to me than the other 2 OT films, particularly ANH. I think it is judged inferior because ANH was a historical breakthrough and TESB exceeded all expectations. While ROTJ is still on a par with the other two, it didnt outshine either of their achievements, so this is probably why it is seen as the weakest of the three. -----signature----- I find your lack of faith disturbing
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DarthyMarkyMark Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 3/6/05 3:31pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	RotJ is probably the movie I enjoy least of all five. I don't know why - all the others I can watch and love every single moment of them, but there are some things about RotJ that just aren't quite up to the rest of the saga. It's still a great movie, and I still love it - I just don't enjoy it quite as much as the others. I don't mind the Ewoks, that's no the problem, and the scenes with Palpatine are some of the best in the saga. I think the Jabba palace rescue goes on a little bit too long, and also, I don't like what happened to Han and Leia in this one. They seem very passive, and to be honest, rather dull. Of the main trio, only Mark Hamill really puts anything into his performance. Han and Leia are just less fun - they don't bicker, and the spark has been lost. SW movies work best when the main characters are arguing and bickering - that's how it is in every other SW movie - it just doesn't happen enough here. Having said that, I love the movie, and it's a great, rousing finale to the saga. It could have been even better, though.
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NorCalBirdz Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 3/6/05 4:26pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Everytime I think about ROTJ, I think about all of the action and drama of the ending with Luke/Vader and the Rebel space battle and think "It's got some bad points, but it's still very good". But when I sit down to watch the whole movie, everytime it gets to the point where Han, Leia, Luke etc. are captured and they are marching to the Ewok village, I suddenly remember what I don't like about it. Quite frankly, for about a full half hour, it's just plain boring. Also; The Tatooine rescue is incredibly contrived Dagobah is seen for only a fleeting moment and Yoda is reduced to a mere cameo. I don't say that as a huge Yoda fan who is mad and wants to see more Yoda, I say that as a moviegoer who sees that Yoda's convienent death is contrived and only meant to tie up a loose end very quicly. Luke/Leia brother and sister. Awful awful awful. Are we really to believe that a group of three people(Luke, Leia, Vader) in a galaxy of thousands of planets are going to meet coincidentally? Imagine the odds of that happening on the planet Earth alone. You surely wouldn't bet your life savings on it. And the scene revealing it couldn't be more terrible. For me it's the worst scene in the entire saga, easily. And even though the circumstances surrounding it were completely implausible, it still had the potential to be an emotionally moving scene. Instead we get awful dialogue and acting. Eworks defeating "an entire legion" of the best Imperial troops. Enough said. I still like ROTJ, the conclusion to Luke/Vader is very satisfyign to me, and Ian McDiarmid turns in one of my favorite peformances in any movie ever. But bottom line, when I watch ROTJ, my finger is on the chapter skip button more than any other SW movie(besides TPM) -----signature----- Wouldn't It Be Nice?
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BaronFel88 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/6/05 4:31pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I have to disagree with the sentiment that the Tatooine sequence is too long. If anything, the Endor sequence (especially the early parts) seem to drag on. -----signature----- "Oh the pain" "What a disgrace" -Joe Benigno
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redsabreanakin Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 3/6/05 8:52pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	my two cents: I love ROTJ,it's my favorite.Which is not to say that they're are some parts that drive me nuts. 1)Ewoks suck: but they don't ruin the movie for me. It lasts 2hrs and 7 minutes and they really don't have that much screen time. 2)Everyone always critiques the acting in the PT,but here their performances were just as bad, except for Hamill whose character had the biggest storyline. (Ford really phoned this one in) 3) i do wish the duel had been a bit longer. now.. 1) best space battle ever!!( i bet better that ROTS,ROTS will be too overwhelming,too fast (as is the case these days i.e. bourne supremacy) and to much to visually understand ..overload) 2)speeder bikes 3)the emperor 4) a jedi vs. a sith: i don't think the duel was lacking in quality at all. The fight on the stairs was very intense,fast, and fluid. As for Vader "just falling down" at the end, wasn't he beaten by a powerful jedi knight. i mean c'mon..nitpicking. 5)a jedi on the sail barge: fantastic stuff. (yes, limbs would be flying all over the place; but that was 22 years ago. That would have been to graphic. (Thats why i'm assuming ROTS will be pg-13). great scene,great music,..great stuff. 6) destroying the death star by flying through the inside of it.. brilliant. remember seeing it in the theatre when the reactor fell, and the whole cinema went into a fireball...too awesome. Great movie..All the movies,even the beloved Empire, have their faults. After almost 30 years, there seems to be this belief that the OT was flawless; but if some of you recall.The OT was not viewed favorably in their first releases. Time has been very kind to them (at least in relation to the PT). p.s. Kurtz produced only AHN and EMPIRE, Why is he always the one quoted when something negative comes up about JEDI or the PT? was he really instrumental in the formation of the those movies? (besides the money). i don't get it. -----signature----- "you always were a cunning linguist; James" "of course..no sense in going off half cocked" "keeping the british end up sir!" "well? providing the collars and cuffs match" "you'll just have to decide how much pumping is needed"
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