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Author	Topic: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
Freddy-Krueger Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 3/6/05 9:15pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Are we really to believe that a group of three people(Luke, Leia, Vader) in a galaxy of thousands of planets are going to meet coincidentally? You can believe that there's lightspeed, lightsabers, guns that shoot lasers, there's a planet with TWO suns....but you can't believe that three people can meet (seemingly) by accident. Incredible. -----signature----- "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge!"
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Aiel_Neeuq Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 3/6/05 9:41pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	"Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?" I don't know, I think it a pretty good movie. Very well written and directed and the final scene with Ian shows why he owns all. The Ewok however are unbearable but I usually just fast forward their scene but the movie is definately in good standings with me because of Ian, Vader redemptions, and Luke coming full circle as a Jedi....as a matter of fact, I'm going to watch it right after I log off tonight...The original version of course. -----signature----- I've been told ROTS will change the way we laugh at movies
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Emperor_Dantius Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 3/6/05 11:49pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I can't see why it's a bad movie. I think ANH alone would be pretty boring. -----signature----- My ranking of the saga: III VI II V I IV
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Genrader Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 3/7/05 6:13am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Out of all of the movies, Return of the Jedi is probably my favorite. The climatic battle in space led by Lando as well as the Vader/Luke/Emperor scenes are just wonderful, with awesome music. I enjoyed the Endor battle as well. Luke/Leia brother and sister. Awful awful awful. Are we really to believe that a group of three people(Luke, Leia, Vader) in a galaxy of thousands of planets are going to meet coincidentally? Imagine the odds of that happening on the planet Earth alone. You surely wouldn't bet your life savings on it. And the scene revealing it couldn't be more terrible. For me it's the worst scene in the entire saga, easily. And even though the circumstances surrounding it were completely implausible, it still had the potential to be an emotionally moving scene. Instead we get awful dialogue and acting. What are you talking about? Pay attention to the other movies, it was the will of the force :P -----signature----- Genrader Help me pass the potato around all 50 states <a href="http://www.passthepotato.com/potato.php?potatoid=050601100132-538815">Help me!</a>
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NorCalBirdz Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 3/7/05 8:45am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	You can believe that there's lightspeed, lightsabers, guns that shoot lasers, there's a planet with TWO suns....but you can't believe that three people can meet (seemingly) by accident. Yeah, I absolutely believe that there's a galaxy out there with Jedi Knights, lightspeed travel, and evil people who shoot lightning out of their fingertips. What are you talking about? Ever heard of suspension of disbelief? The GFFA is where the movie takes place and is pure fantasy. The audience knows that. It's not implausible, it's a pure fantasy environment. The audience knows that. The point isn't the movie environment, it's the storytelling within the already accepted said environment. Based on your logic any sci-fi/fantasy movie can have an unlimited number of ridiculous plot contrivances because if the audience is willing to accept the fantasy environment, anything else goes. -----signature----- Wouldn't It Be Nice?
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Freddy-Krueger Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 3/7/05 12:26pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 3/7/05 12:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Freddy-Krueger
	Ever heard of suspension of disbelief? Of course I have. And you apparently missed the total point in my post (in that you could somehow suspend your disbelief only so much in a FANTASY MOVIE). And if you consider The Will of the Force bringing three people together a plot contrivance in a flippin Star Wars movie, then I don't know what to say. It isn't even that contrived, really. Not anymore "contrived" than lightspeed, lightsabers, force powers, etc. -----signature----- "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge!"
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DarthMatter Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/7/05 10:19pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Well, I've been an ROTJ fan for many years. Although, I didn't like it at first, I've never liked the Ewoks, and the whole Jabba's palace thing is way too drawn out. What I love is Luke's strength and the dark, bleak atmosphere of the Emperor ending. Since the DVDs came out, I've gained a love for TESB, lost some for ANH, and gained a bit more for ROTJ. I think GL could replace the Ewok's battle shots with some "Super Ewoks", much like Wookies, who do the actual fighting, and leave those cuties for the other character-driven scenes. It would work with GL's premise and allow many of us to embrace the Ewoks. Just a thought. Diogones said: "everyone EXCEPT Vader, was lying. Obi Wan, Yoda, even (arguably) Han and Leia, were playing Luke for a fool. His trusted mentors are using him as a pawn, his best friend is making time with his girl (discard all the brother/sister nonsense), the galaxy is falling apart at the seams, and the only person Luke can turn to for the truth...is the BAD GUY!" Yes, this should have been happening in the space left by greatly reducing the Jabba's palace sequence. It could have been set up intercut with the Vader stuff, by showing Luke looking for and finding his sister before going to Tatooine to free Han. There could have been another scene or two, like the one with Leia, "he can feel when I'm near", with his newfound sister after Yoda dies, with a Yoda force ghost exchange as well. The rest of the movie, with Super Ewoks inserted in battle shots, runs much the same. This may sound like a lot, but TPM and AOTC cover at least as much ground with much quicker cutting. Anway, to rejoin my gusher friends, one of the real strengths of ROTJ is showing how Luke ends up stronger than anyone else in the saga, emotionally. He has lost the only family he ever knew (Owen and Beru), then lost his mentor and guide to a new world (Obi-Wan), his best friend (Biggs) in the battle of Yavin, then his Master (Yoda). Then after all that and more, he loses his father, who, just to make it that much more poignant, dies just as Luke really "meets" him as Anakin. The restrained and understated, brooding emotions in Luke's character, set up in TESB, are extremely satisfying in ROTJ, and taken with all the Palpatine/Vader stuff in the ending sequence, make ROTJ quite a powerful film to end a saga... -----signature----- "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions as a Democracy."
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appleseed Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 3/8/05 6:51pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	The only reason people whine about ROTJ is the Ewoks. I don't have a problem with them personally. Like others have said, it seeing Luke's final evolution that makes ROTJ so special. The fact that he finally realized his potential-while still remaining true to his character-is excellent writing. The surrender scene with Luke and Vader is incredibly emotional and the scenes with Luke, Vader and Sidious are excellent. They're easily the most emotional scenes of the OT. -----signature----- Original Tomatometer Ranking of Star Wars Series : ROTS: 83% ANH: 79% AOTC: 65% TPM: 62% ESB: 52% (!!) ROTJ: 31% "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do."-Ben Franklin
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Kotzenjunge Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 3/8/05 7:50pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	I think ROTJ is fabulous and trumps the prequels (so far), but it's the beginning of Lucas's predisposition with SFX that we see overwhelming the good factors in the prequel trilogy. Cinematography starts to suffer at the expense of getting every little detail in, so the best shots end up on minimal sets (ie. the Throne Room). It's more powerful on a bang-whiz level but not on a really psyche-stimulating level. -----signature----- Everyone talk about Pop Muzik.
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SkottASkywalker Registered: Jan '02	Date Posted: 3/8/05 9:19pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 3/8/05 9:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: SkottASkywalker
	STAR WARS EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI is an absolutely great movie and absolutely worthy of being the last Episode of the STAR WARS Saga. -----signature----- "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Rise. Fall. Redemption. Prophecy fulfilled. Balance to the Force. Peace and freedom to the galaxy. "It's so wonderful, Ani. You have brought hope to those who have none."
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RogueScribner Title: Webmaster Or lando FL FanForce Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/8/05 9:48pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	It occurs to me that I haven't really weighed in on this topic, so here I go . . . In a nutshell, Return of the Jedi is a rehash of the previous films. The only new ground covered is in regards to Luke and Vader and the Emperor. Let's see, let's spend half the movie on Tatooine just like in ANH, check, let's have a cantina scene retread in Jabba's palace, check, let's have Luke learn something new on Dagobah and then face a difficult choice like in TESB, check, let's blow up a Death Star again 'cause that worked so well in ANH, check, let's get a little vertigo going on Endor just like the trench run in ANH, check. Not only that, but other than Endor, we're not treated to any new locales. And a forest isn't all that interesting. Anyone anywhere can visit a forest. A pretty boring exotic locale in the GFFA. It goes on and on. But that isn't even the worst part. ROTJ failed to capitalize on everything set up in ANH and TESB. Vader is whipped in this movie. I mean, what does he do, really? He's all talk until he duels with Luke at the end. Sure, there's conflict within him, but are we meant to believe that after Bespin Vader turned soft? Vader is almost a completely different character compared to the previous films. The first hint of something changing in Vader should be the scene between him and Luke on Endor. Before that, we should perceive him as the bad ass Sith Lord we knew him as. One scene prior to Endor demonstrating that Vader is still someone to be feared would have gone a long way. Talking down to an officer in a hanger bay doesn't quite cut it. Han and Leia. Sparks flew between them in ANH. They were both bullheaded and feisty. TESB delved deeper, bringing them together in a believable fashion. Then ROTJ hits. The life was sucked out of both characters, but primarily Han. The way they were acting, you'd think they'd been married for 15 years and bored with each other already. Even their reunion kiss was flat. What happened? Han and Lando. They act like they're best friends all throughout this movie. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last Han knew Lando betrayed him and Leia to the Empire and was the main reason he was put into carbonite in the first place. I didn't realize Han was so quick to forgive! I'm not saying they should have been at odds the whole movie (they spend most of it apart anyway), but I find it incredible that Han acts ignorant of Lando's past duplicity. Assuming things were moving too fast on Tatooine to have a real character scene between the two, during the Sail Barge sequence, why not have Lando go over, scream for help, and Han yell, "Help yourself!" Then Chewie could growl in Lando's defense and force (guilt) Han into helping Lando. Or there could be a scene on Home One before the briefing where the two of them have some quick dialogue to hash things out. A few lines would do it. But there is no acknowledgement about their past from anyone. Lando is suddenly deemed a "good guy" and Han just goes along with it with nary a word. Unbelievable. You wanna talk contrived? Leia being Luke's sister? Come on! Even when I was 8 and saw this movie for the first time, I thought to myself, "What?" Not only is it awfully convenient, but it sucks drama out of the movie rather than increases it. Leia gets a little boo hoo scene and yes, we get a cool "NO!" moment from Luke later on when Vader threatens to turn her to the dark side, but it goes against the character arcs set up in the previous two films. Leia and Luke shared a slight romantic thread in ANH (he was clearly smitten with her and they had that heroic swing across the chasm), and it was played up a little in the beginning of TESB (where originally they shared a more intimate kiss). Many people assumed Luke would get the girl, but Han got her instead. Wouldn't it have been cooler if Luke still wanted Leia, but gave her up for the greater good? Rather than having her be some convenient answer to a vague question posed by TESB? Knocking a hero down, stripping him of everything he ever had, and then watching him stand up and still do the right thing is drama. Honestly, I don't think Luke suffered as much as he could have. Leia being his sister created some weird safety net for him. If he failed, she could carry on. Making her his sister also eliminates any romantic conflict, so all's good between him and Han. It also defies logic because Obi-Wan and Yoda are now playing dangerous games with all their eggs in one basket. It makes more sense for Luke's sister to be hidden somewhere rather than actively participating in the Rebellion. It's just sloppy. Speaking of which, that scene between Luke and Leia in the Ewok village before he leaves to meet Vader is just hard to sit through. Hamill and Fisher weren't their best that day. Maybe it's the fault of the director or the writer, I don't know, but that scene stops the movie cold. It looks like amatuer hour. Ford didn't fare any better at the end of the scene, either. ROTJ also pointedly played to the kiddies for the first time in the saga. Chewbacca makes the Tarzan yell. The fact that Ewoks exist, that was just for the kiddies. Wicket hits himself in the face with a sling. There are a few "funny" burps in this movie. Muppets galore in Jabba's palace. Stupid humor, like between Han and Threepio in the Ewok village, or the Ewok on a speeder bike (are they really that easy to drive?). There were consequences in previous films. What was lost in ROTJ? Everyone came out on top. Luke lost his family, his best friend, and his mentor in ANH. Luke lost his hand, his world was shaken, Han was frozen in carbonite, Leia tortured, and the Rebellion suffered a huge defeat in TESB. ROTJ . . . well, Yoda died, that was kinda sad, I guess. Uh . . . nope, that's it. Everything worked out for everyone. Vader was even redeemed. Well, fancy that. The saber fight I rank second best in the saga, behind TESB, only because of the emotion involved. I watched ROTJ again just two days ago and I also noticed how poorly choreographed the end fight was. Heck, all of the action. Luke isn't a master swordsman; he just flails and hopefully everything he hits was the bad guy. The only reason Vader lost to Luke is because the script demanded it. We should have seen Luke really become a match for Vader. Then Vader, as well as the audience, could be surprised at how strong he's become. The duel serves its purpose, but it contains a few moments I don't buy, such as Vader falling down, etc. Take away the score and the dialogue and what you are left with is nothing more than a poorly staged fight scene. I don't know if it's Lucas or Marquand, but someone dropped the ball with the action scenes in this movie. Better choreography and some creative editing can work wonders. But then, why should the action outclass the retread of a movie? I think Lucas was so eager to just end Star Wars that he sacrificed story for product. In the wake of TESB, that wasn't such a hot thing to do. Before I wrap up, I'd like to point out that I don't hate the movie. There's a lot of good in the movie. It still has the best space battle in the saga. I really enjoy the Sail Barge sequence, even if the music is very familar and Luke is swinging his lightsaber around like a baseball bat. There's a dry humor that runs throughout the movie that I dig, some of the few moments the characters shine. I love all the Throne Room scenes. The Emperor was note perfect and the performance still resonates today. I enjoy Threepio as a golden god. And Boba Fett's death is always good for a laugh. Still, there is a clear disconnect between the first two films and ROTJ. Many speculate that Gary Kurtz had something to do with it. Some speculate Lucas just lost focus and was more worried about merchandise than actually making a good movie. ANH and TESB defied convention. ROTJ was convention. I don't know why it's so different from the first two films, but it is. Maybe everyone was just getting tired of Star Wars by that point, namely Lucas. ROTJ isn't a bad movie. It's certainly better than most of what Hollywood spits out. It's still Star Wars. But while ANH and TESB inspired my imagination, ROTJ just seemed . . . ordinary. There was nothing new to blow my mind. A Star Wars movie that isn't awe inspiring? That's the recipe for disappointment. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get everything out while I could think of it. L8r -----signature----- "I find your lack of faith disturbing." - http://www.orlandosystem.com - "You can't take the sky from me . . . ."
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Freddy-Krueger Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 3/9/05 7:27am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 3/9/05 7:32am (2 edits total) Edited By: Freddy-Krueger
	Correct me if I'm wrong, but last Han knew Lando betrayed him and Leia to the Empire "Just stick close to Chewie and Lando." -Luke Han knows that Lando's there to help and is trying to redeem himself. ROTJ also pointedly played to the kiddies for the first time in the saga. Ummm....no. The original Star Wars was considered a kid's film as well. People have this misconception that just because ESB was a little dark that Star Wars was never marketed toward kids. Star Wars has always always always been about the kids. Even the upcoming Revenge of the Sith. Sure, it'll be dark as hell, but there're still going to be creatures and toys abound. Many speculate that Gary Kurtz had something to do with it. Please, Kurtz had nothing to do with the success of Star Wars. The only thing that stopped Lucas from getting everything he wanted on screen was the technologies of the time. Kurtz is just a bitter a-hole who thinks he's the reason the first two films were so good (and automatically thinks every other film that he didn't produce is crap). -----signature----- "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge!"
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DarthMatter Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/9/05 9:23am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	RogueScribner, I'll agree with all of your points. Although I'm a fan of ROTJ, I can also see its many flaws. I was in high school when it came out, and laughed at much of it in the theatre. Basically, it suffers from a VERY thin plot and way too many retreadings. But it's not like ANH and TESB are consistent together, apart from ROTJ - they are all inconsistent with one another. For me, TPM and AOTC are far more consistent with one another, and ROTS looks like it will be at least as consistent with TPM and AOTC. Oh, I'll get heat for saying this, but the OT will never be truly consistent without being at least highly updated or remade. There are just too many flaws, and some of us old enough to remember thought so at the time, long before there was even a rumour of a PT.....still....they're just so wonderful to watch -----signature----- "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions as a Democracy."
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RogueScribner Title: Webmaster Or lando FL FanForce Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/9/05 11:10am Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie?
	Correct me if I'm wrong, but last Han knew Lando betrayed him and Leia to the Empire "Just stick close to Chewie and Lando." -Luke Han knows that Lando's there to help and is trying to redeem himself. So that one line wipes the slate clean? Are you kidding me? ROTJ also pointedly played to the kiddies for the first time in the saga. Ummm....no. The original Star Wars was considered a kid's film as well. People have this misconception that just because ESB was a little dark that Star Wars was never marketed toward kids. Star Wars has always always always been about the kids. I didn't say Star Wars was never marketed towards kids, I said ROTJ pointedly played to the kiddies for the first time in the saga. Of course Lucas wanted kids to enjoy his films, but he never pandered to them like he did in this movie. Many speculate that Gary Kurtz had something to do with it. Please, Kurtz had nothing to do with the success of Star Wars. The only thing that stopped Lucas from getting everything he wanted on screen was the technologies of the time. Kurtz is just a bitter a-hole who thinks he's the reason the first two films were so good (and automatically thinks every other film that he didn't produce is crap). Well, I guess we'll never know the extent of Kurtz's influence on Star Wars, but I wouldn't say he had nothing to do with the success of the first two films. A producer's role is vital and it's well documented that he worked closely with Lucas on ANH and ran much of the production on TESB while Lucas stayed stateside. That being said, Kurtz's absence and the drop in quality in ROTJ could just be a coincidence, but maybe not. It's hard to say definitively. I just find it curious. I'm not crediting Kurtz with a huge creative influence over Star Wars, but maybe a lack of a good producer forced Lucas to take on more than he could handle in ROTJ and the film suffered? Couple that with reports of Lucas having to take over directing duties at certain points and I can see how Lucas can be overburdened. I don't know. It's all speculation. A lot of the problems were in the script, which Kurtz wouldn't have had anything to do with anyway. So maybe my theory of Lucas just being tired of Star Wars has more merit. L8r -----signature----- "I find your lack of faith disturbing." - http://www.orlandosystem.com - "You can't take the sky from me . . . ."
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Freddy-Krueger Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 3/9/05 1:55pm Subject: RE: Why Is ROTJ Considered A Bad Movie? - Date Edited: 3/9/05 2:00pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Freddy-Krueger
	So that one line wipes the slate clean? Are you kidding me? I wouldn't say it wipes the entire slate clean, but I think Han would be willing to give it a shot, especially if Luke and Chewie of all people are willing to trust him. Besides, there's always that cut desert storm scene where Lando talks to Han and Han forgives him. I didn't say Star Wars was never marketed towards kids, I said ROTJ pointedly played to the kiddies for the first time in the saga. Of course Lucas wanted kids to enjoy his films, but he never pandered to them like he did in this movie. Meh, to me it didn't seem like ROTJ was any more the kids movie than the other two films. That's just my opinion, though. A producer's role is vital and it's well documented that he worked closely with Lucas on ANH and ran much of the production on TESB while Lucas stayed stateside. This is true, but also remember that both films were George's films, and nothing got by without his approval (even when he was in the states) I just get a bad vibe from Kurtz. In every interview I read of his, he just comes across as this guy who is bitter and hates the installments without his involvement just for the sake of hating them. That being said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on these points. -----signature----- "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge!"
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