Author Topic: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
CHUNKY_THE_HUTT 
Registered: May '08
6242_2-1B
Date Posted: 5/24 9:18am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
With all the loafs of bread (especially Warburtons) they produced I'm not surprised.

 

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JEDIGUNSHIP 
Registered: May '08
7439_Republic Gunship
Date Posted: 5/25 8:00pm Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
History repeats itself. Enough said. idea

 

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Jedi Knight in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander of Phoenix Squadron in the Rebel Alliance
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Blur 
Registered: Aug '99
Date Posted: 8/11 8:18am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid

As others have said, the concept/idea of a primitive group (the Ewoks) beating a technologically superior force (the Imperials) using primitive weapons was fine, and did make perfect sense. It was the way this was handled that was off - having little Teddy Bears running around taking out the Imperials was at best silly, and at worst stupid.

There are a lot of ways this could have been handled better:

- As has been said many times (and as was even considered at the time ROTJ was being planned), having Wookies instead of Ewoks would have been great, and made the battle much better and more interesting. However, for logistical/financial reasons, this probably wouldn't have worked in 1981/1982 (when the movie was filmed) - This was before CGI, and finding/outfitting a large group of 7-foot tall individuals would have been difficult and expensive.

- The alternative would have been to keep the Ewoks, but to make them all more warrior-like and menacing, instead of cute and cuddly. During the scene when the Ewoks surrounded the Rebels after they had fallen out of the net trap, there were a couple of dark-furred Ewoks in that scene (Teebo, etc.) that looked more warrior-like than the stuffed-animal-like Wicket, Chief Chirpa, etc. But, Teebo and co. were unfortunately not the majority.

 

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GrandAdmiral_Frank 
Registered: Aug '03
22998_Han and Leia
Date Posted: 8/11 8:44am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
Yes the Ewoks had numbers but their weapons were crap yet Lucas allowed them to be effective. Watch in ROTJ when Leia first meets Wicket she tries to offer him food and then shots ring out from out of no where and then bam there's a Scout Trooper ready to take her in. What do you know Wicket is able to distract him long enough for Leia to show off her skills. What's relevant about this is that Wicket hits the Scout Trooper with his spear and he looks down and you know he's not hurt at all yet something made contact.

Fastforward to the battle of Endor and suddenly these same weapons are clobbering the Imps. No Way! They have armor. They have superior technology. Instead not only are Imperial troops bad at shooting Wookies and the main characters but they also can't shoot little teddy bears either. It just sucks. I love all Star Wars films but this film just has so much crap in it. The savior of this film is Luke Skywalker becoming a BA, Admiral Ackbar, and of course the Fantastic Ian McDiarmid.

 

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Vortigern99 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '00
6129_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 8/13 10:07am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
But Wicket is a child Ewok. His strength was not sufficient to injure that Scout-Trooper; and anyway the little 'Wok only struck the 'Trooper's foot. During the battle, even the full-grown 'Woks are successful only in a few instances, hurling rocks from above onto the 'Troopers' heads (producing enough force via downward momentum to concuss the men's skulls inside those lightweight helmets) or via the large-scale traps. Even then, the "teddy bears" did not begin to gain any kind of advantage until Chewbacca commandeered the AT-ST and began to lay waste to the Imperial forces.

 

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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
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JabbatheHutt15 
Registered: Aug '08
6602_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 8/14 6:47am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
I would definitely agree. The U.S. beat Britain in the American Revolution. Also I have always loved the Ewoks.

 

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JabbatheHutt15 
Registered: Aug '08
6602_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 8/14 6:49am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
I would definitely agree. The U.S. beat Britain in the American Revolution. Also I have always loved the Ewoks. And they're not the only creatures that defeated the Empire what about Lando and all of the other Rebels fighting the Empire in space above Endor and blowing up the death star.

 

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Vortigern99 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '00
6129_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 8/14 8:20am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
Not only that, but on the ground there are Rebel forces fighting as well. The camera, or the editor, shies away from them because the Ewoks are the focus of the battle, but you can see them in the background here and there. The Ewoks did not single-handedly defeat an Imperial legion; they distracted them long enough for Han to get the shield down, with the assistance of Rebel soldiers and Chewbacca in an AT-ST.

 

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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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CaptainYossarian 
Registered: Mar '03
7956_Bo Shek
Date Posted: 8/14 6:32pm Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
I've never really understood why people have such a hard time accepting the Ewoks either. It's said that the Ewoks are 'too cute' but that's just a matter of perception. The Humans in the story thought that they were just little teddy bears as well. When they're captured, Luke and co have a good chuckle when they see the Ewoks. The story is told from the point of view of the Humans. They don't find the Ewoks very menacing, so neither do you, the viewer. However, that's before they've actually done anything to prove themselves.

On the other hand, the Ewoks think of themselves as pretty tough, not at all how outsiders view them. They see themselves as a proud warrior culture with mastery over their habitat. They have no fear of the rebels and fully expect them to accept that they've been captured. They then intend on cooking and eating them. Note also that the Empire did not see the Ewoks as a threat since they were too primitive. I think their overconfidence might have been their weakness there.

So the Ewoks may look like simple creatures according to how Humans think but they have many decent qualities. They join together with those the rebels who've proved themselves to be honourable to defeat a larger enemy. They could have easily told the rebels to get lost and then hidden in the woods until the fighting was over but they didn't. They went up against an enemy they knew was vastly more powerful and technologically advanced just to give their new allies a chance to put their plan into action.

Ewoks are intelligent enough to use what they have around them to come up with some decent weapons. Building gliders, catapults and traps big enough to destroy and AT-ST seems quite impressive to me. The Ewoks don't actually defeat the Imperials either. They take them by surprise and then keep them occupied for a while. They know the terrain and they have tenacity and spirit - they were fighting for their homeland which is why they threw themselves into battle. So yes, on a few occasions they manage to batter a few stormtroopers but there's also quite a bit of the Ewoks losing as well. Their gliders get shot down, their catapults get shot up and some of them get killed (and chucked in the bushes). Many more Ewoks must have been killed than are shown on screen since the Empire did have superior firepower. That is implied but seeing it would be right downer. However, it's largely a function of the story that the Ewoks are shown to win against the Empire as much as they do. Ultimately they're going to win because they're with the good guys so it makes sense to actually show them being effective against the Imperials sometimes, especially as the tide of battle turns.

If the Endor battle was just shot after shot of the stormtroopers mullering the Ewoks then the viewer might wonder how they managed to keep the Empire occupied long enough for the rebels to get in the bunker, or why the Empire bothered to fight the Ewoks at all when they knew what the rebels were trying to do. If Ewoks are so rubbish, and the Empire knew they were rubbish, why did they leave the area around the bunker to go and fight them? Ewoks are also effective fighters because they were small enough to hide and they were better camouflaged. If a squad of stormtroopers chased after some Ewoks who distracted them then other, unseen Ewoks could attack them from behind. It's also true that the Imperials had to fight two enemies - the Ewoks and the rebels. So if they concentrated on attacking the rebels (the greater threat) they left themselves open to attack from Ewoks. Some of the Imperials went to take care of the Ewoks to stop them attacking those who were battling the rebels. That was a flaw in the Imperial plan. If all the stormtroopers had concentrated on fighting the rebels then they would have had sufficient numbers to defend against the less dangerous Ewoks as well. The Ewoks drew the Imperials into spreading themselves too thinly though and that is how they managed to keep them occupied for so long. It seems as though it was Imperial pride and face-saving that led them to hunt down the Ewoks who'd dared to attack them rather than regrouping to defend their base.

Stormtroopers dressed in white in a forest was also not a good move by the Empire. It seems they did not envisage ever taking on opponents in the forest itself and merely planned to defend their base and the area around it, since they had discounted all the local species as threats. So they never even bothered with camouflage. We also know that perhaps stormtrooper armour is not all that effective, helmets being difficult to see out of for instance which may have been exacerbated in forest conditions. The troops might also have been unfamiliar with fighting in such an environment. And it is true that there was a decline in trooper effectiveness since the Clone Wars. Those troops made by the Empire were never as good as the original Jango clones due to both the lesser training methods and the inferior genetic templates used to create a lot of the OT troops. So the Imperials had their own disadvantages to deal with.

All in all, I think the Ewoks did as well as they did because they were the better team on the day. The Empire thought they had it covered as far as Endor was concerned but the local boys gave them a run for their money. Editorially the Ewoks have to be shown winning at some point because that's what the audience wants to see, particularly younger viewers. The Ewoks wanted rid of the Imperials but they couldn't do it alone because they knew they'd lose in a straight fight. However, allied with the rebels they managed to put up a pretty good fight which served its purpose in keeping the Imperials occupied.

So Ewoks may look funny by Human standards and not worth bothering about. However, I also seem to remember a crazy little annoying frog creature that lived in a swamp and talked funny. He turned out OK in the end though. There's also that other famous bloke who was only little but he killed a giant with a pebble. What was his name? Dave something or other. There seems to be a rather obvious upfront message in ROTJ and it's probably something like "don't judge by appearances only" or to judge others by their actions or the content of their characters. You know, something like that maybe.

 

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rumsmuggler 
Registered: Aug '00
42319_Lando Playing Sabacc
Date Posted: 8/15 8:11am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
applause

 

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Vortigern99 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '00
6129_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 8/15 8:27am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
Bravissimo! I concur wholeheartedly.

 

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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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GrandAdmiral_Frank 
Registered: Aug '03
22998_Han and Leia
Date Posted: 8/16 9:32am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
CaptainYossarian posted:
I've never really understood why people have such a hard time accepting the Ewoks either. It's said that the Ewoks are 'too cute' but that's just a matter of perception. The Humans in the story thought that they were just little teddy bears as well. When they're captured, Luke and co have a good chuckle when they see the Ewoks. The story is told from the point of view of the Humans. They don't find the Ewoks very menacing, so neither do you, the viewer. However, that's before they've actually done anything to prove themselves.

On the other hand, the Ewoks think of themselves as pretty tough, not at all how outsiders view them. They see themselves as a proud warrior culture with mastery over their habitat. They have no fear of the rebels and fully expect them to accept that they've been captured. They then intend on cooking and eating them. Note also that the Empire did not see the Ewoks as a threat since they were too primitive. I think their overconfidence might have been their weakness there.

So the Ewoks may look like simple creatures according to how Humans think but they have many decent qualities. They join together with those the rebels who've proved themselves to be honourable to defeat a larger enemy. They could have easily told the rebels to get lost and then hidden in the woods until the fighting was over but they didn't. They went up against an enemy they knew was vastly more powerful and technologically advanced just to give their new allies a chance to put their plan into action.

Ewoks are intelligent enough to use what they have around them to come up with some decent weapons. Building gliders, catapults and traps big enough to destroy and AT-ST seems quite impressive to me. The Ewoks don't actually defeat the Imperials either. They take them by surprise and then keep them occupied for a while. They know the terrain and they have tenacity and spirit - they were fighting for their homeland which is why they threw themselves into battle. So yes, on a few occasions they manage to batter a few stormtroopers but there's also quite a bit of the Ewoks losing as well. Their gliders get shot down, their catapults get shot up and some of them get killed (and chucked in the bushes). Many more Ewoks must have been killed than are shown on screen since the Empire did have superior firepower. That is implied but seeing it would be right downer. However, it's largely a function of the story that the Ewoks are shown to win against the Empire as much as they do. Ultimately they're going to win because they're with the good guys so it makes sense to actually show them being effective against the Imperials sometimes, especially as the tide of battle turns.

If the Endor battle was just shot after shot of the stormtroopers mullering the Ewoks then the viewer might wonder how they managed to keep the Empire occupied long enough for the rebels to get in the bunker, or why the Empire bothered to fight the Ewoks at all when they knew what the rebels were trying to do. If Ewoks are so rubbish, and the Empire knew they were rubbish, why did they leave the area around the bunker to go and fight them? Ewoks are also effective fighters because they were small enough to hide and they were better camouflaged. If a squad of stormtroopers chased after some Ewoks who distracted them then other, unseen Ewoks could attack them from behind. It's also true that the Imperials had to fight two enemies - the Ewoks and the rebels. So if they concentrated on attacking the rebels (the greater threat) they left themselves open to attack from Ewoks. Some of the Imperials went to take care of the Ewoks to stop them attacking those who were battling the rebels. That was a flaw in the Imperial plan. If all the stormtroopers had concentrated on fighting the rebels then they would have had sufficient numbers to defend against the less dangerous Ewoks as well. The Ewoks drew the Imperials into spreading themselves too thinly though and that is how they managed to keep them occupied for so long. It seems as though it was Imperial pride and face-saving that led them to hunt down the Ewoks who'd dared to attack them rather than regrouping to defend their base.

Stormtroopers dressed in white in a forest was also not a good move by the Empire. It seems they did not envisage ever taking on opponents in the forest itself and merely planned to defend their base and the area around it, since they had discounted all the local species as threats. So they never even bothered with camouflage. We also know that perhaps stormtrooper armour is not all that effective, helmets being difficult to see out of for instance which may have been exacerbated in forest conditions. The troops might also have been unfamiliar with fighting in such an environment. And it is true that there was a decline in trooper effectiveness since the Clone Wars. Those troops made by the Empire were never as good as the original Jango clones due to both the lesser training methods and the inferior genetic templates used to create a lot of the OT troops. So the Imperials had their own disadvantages to deal with.

All in all, I think the Ewoks did as well as they did because they were the better team on the day. The Empire thought they had it covered as far as Endor was concerned but the local boys gave them a run for their money. Editorially the Ewoks have to be shown winning at some point because that's what the audience wants to see, particularly younger viewers. The Ewoks wanted rid of the Imperials but they couldn't do it alone because they knew they'd lose in a straight fight. However, allied with the rebels they managed to put up a pretty good fight which served its purpose in keeping the Imperials occupied.

So Ewoks may look funny by Human standards and not worth bothering about. However, I also seem to remember a crazy little annoying frog creature that lived in a swamp and talked funny. He turned out OK in the end though. There's also that other famous bloke who was only little but he killed a giant with a pebble. What was his name? Dave something or other. There seems to be a rather obvious upfront message in ROTJ and it's probably something like "don't judge by appearances only" or to judge others by their actions or the content of their characters. You know, something like that maybe.



Well that changes my perspective on things. Now I feel retarded, into exile I will go.

 

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obi-rob-kenobi4 
Registered: Apr '07
22997_Ghosts ROTJ (DVD)
Date Posted: 8/21 7:30am Subject: RE: Why the Ewoks beating the Empire isn't stupid
Why does everyone always think that the ewoks beat the empire in that battle????!!! It was a diversion! All they had to do was lead the troops away from the door until han and leia got it open. And they did. They ran away at the end becouse han past the order on to the ewoks to lead the troops into the woods.

Remember the scene after han sed he had an idea when the imp. officers were getting the message that "it was over" and the rebels were fleeing into the woods so they "needed some reinforcements to continue the pursuit"? Remember how happy the officers looked? they were laughing! becouse they had been winning but it was all a big distraction to get them to just open the doors so han & leia could blow the place up.

Also dont forget that there was a large strike teem of specially trained elite rebel solders with han that held off all/any troops that were any wear near the doors to the shield generator. And as we all seen the ewoks did do good for themselves towards the end becouse they lead the empire to there traps in the woods that they knew best and you cant ignore the FACT that there could have been well over a thousand ewoks in that battle plus hans strike teem vs. a couple 100 stormtroopers.

but the bottom line is that the battle was as much a diversion as the battle of naboo was years earlier and becouse of good planing and fast thinking on han's part they were able to accomplish the simple task of planting the charges and getting out of there.

 

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