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Topic:
Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Jedi_Freedom
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 8:35am
Subject:
Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
- Date Edited:
1/13 8:09pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
General Kenobi
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I just realized something last night: In ROTJ, obi-wan and yoda tell luke that he must kill vader to become a jedi. When Luke says that he can't kill his own father, obi-wan says, "then the emperor has already won" Then when fighting vader, the emperor tells him to destroy vader to join the dark side........WHAT??? To me this makes no sense at all. Am i missing something?? Does anyone know what i'm getting at?? Thanks
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skyysoblue
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 8:47am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from obi-wan and yoda in ROTJ
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Luke had to chose his own destiny. Obi Wan and Yoda could not order him to go and turn vader, he had to think of that on his own.
As I recall (since I didn't put on the movie to confirm this), Yoda tells Luke he must confront Vader.
Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Luke would not be able to defeat the Emperor, he was nowhere near that strong.
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Jedi_Freedom
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 10:49am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from obi-wan and yoda in ROTJ
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actually obi-wan says, "you must face darth vader again" then luke says he can't kill his own father, then obw says, "well, then the emperor had already won" this leads me to believe that they want luke to kill him.
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jedi_master_ousley
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 11:18am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Luke had to be ready to kill his own father if that was what it took to destroy the Sith. It didn't mean that's the outcome Obi-Wan and Yoda were hoping for, but it was the most likely scenario. If Luke was not willing to put 100% of his soul into the mission, the Emperor had already won, because Luke wouldn't be able to go through with it when the time came.
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Leias_love_slave
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from obi-wan and yoda in ROTJ
- Date Edited:
2/25/06 11:30am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Leias_love_slave
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Jedi_Freedom posted:
actually obi-wan says, "you must face darth vader again" then luke says he can't kill his own father, then obw says, "well, then the emperor had already won" this leads me to believe that they want luke to kill him.
Wouldn't that make Luke an assassin?
As far as what you felt led to believe, my grandmother used to say:
"Never assume, because when you assume...
...you make an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me'. 
You're free to interpret it differently, but I will always believe that Obi Wan knew that Luke had to CONFRONT Vader in order for the fate of the galaxy to be decided.
To clarify, Obi Wan didn't mean that Luke had to kill his father. He only had to be prepared to kill if it was necessary.
The dialogue is written so as not to give away too much of the film in advance. Would anyone prefer this:
Luke: "I can't do it. I can't kill my own father."
Obi Wan: "Well, there is a possibility that you might not have to. Being his son, there is a chance that when the Emperor realizes that you will never be turned and decides to destroy you, that Vader will look inside himself and decide to kill his master and save you in the process."
Luke: "In that case, I'll do it!" *gives the thumb-up*
edit:
I like the way you put that, jedi master ousley. 
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ThereIsNoConflict
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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That is a good question, which raises quite the conundrum. I guess it comes down to your point of view; either Yoda and old Ben thought that Luke had to kill Vader, or simply needed to be willing to do so, but I guess if Luke could do neither the Emperor would have indeed already won. I will have to pay closer attention to that scene next time I watch ROTJ.
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"You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things."
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Darthdias
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 12:18pm
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Leias_love_slave posted:
Wouldn't that make Luke an assassin?
Only if it wasn't in self-defense. Remember, Obi-Wan and Yoda set out with the intent to kill th Emperor and proto-Vader in ROTS. I would assume that it would only be murder if one kills an unarmed opponent (and Mace was even prepared to do that).
I know many people disagree with me, and that's fine of course, but I think Yoda and Obi-Wan has long stopped believing that Vader is the chosen one by the time of RotJ. They don't want Luke to kill him, but as you said they want him to be prepared to have to. I don't think they had much hope of him ever turning back. Luke was the only one who put any real hope in his father's redemtion.
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Leias_love_slave
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 1:01pm
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Darthdias posted:
Leias_love_slave posted:
Wouldn't that make Luke an assassin?
Only if it wasn't in self-defense. Remember, Obi-Wan and Yoda set out with the intent to kill th Emperor and proto-Vader in ROTS. I would assume that it would only be murder if one kills an unarmed opponent (and Mace was even prepared to do that).
So Luke's mission is to go pick a fight...
...and then kill in self defence.
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"I was Leia's slave-boy." *blushes*
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Darthdias
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 3:50pm
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Yeah, pretty much 
well seriously, that might not have come off the right way. Let me clarify: Luke is a prominent member of the rebel movement (and its only Force user and Vader's son). If he continues to fight the Empire, which Obi-Wan wants him to do, then facing his father again is unavoidable. Luke must be prepared to confront Vader becuase if he doesn't then he has to turn his back on the rebels and then "the Emperor has already won".
Of course Obi-Wan and Yoda wants Vader to turn back. They are Jedi so they have no hatred or feelings of revenge towards him or anything like that. However, I don't se anything in the movies to hint that they thought it was really possible. Yoda said that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will. And every time Luke said that Vader could be turned, Obi-Wan denied it, saying that Vader was twisted and evil and seemed really cynical about the whole thing if you ask me. I think Yoda and Obi-Wan though that Luke would have to kill Vader if when they would eventually meet again. They didn't like it, but they didn't think it could happen any other way. Though Yoda might have considered it.
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blicknasty
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 9:23pm
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Yes, but that is not what they are really telling Luke to do.
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KennethMorgan
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 10:14pm
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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I wouldn't be surprised if, in their hearts, both Ben and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor out of revenge for Order 66. I'm not saying it was their main motivation, but that thought had to be there, if only fleetingly.
In any case, it seems clear that they think Anakin no longer truly exists. He's Vader now, and must be killed before he can do more damage. Turning him back isn't an option.
Fortunately, Luke knew better...
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SarlaccSurvivor
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
2/25/06 10:51pm
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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I agree with Darthdias. Yoda and Obi-wan weren't telling Luke to go kill Vader, and they didn't want Luke to kill Vader. It's just that they saw that outcome as pretty much inevitable if Luke were to face Vader and come back alive. They want to prepare Luke for the (very likely, in their minds) possibility that he will have to kill his father, because they don't believe Vader can be turned back. I don't see how they really could, actually, with their black-and-white view of the Force and their refusal to believe in love.
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Tzigone
Registered:
Feb '06
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Date Posted:
2/26/06 6:11am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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I think they (Obi-Wan at least) did want Luke to kill Darth Vader. Not in a rage where he'd turn to the darkside, but just as Jedi saving the galaxy. I do think that Luke was the only one that thought Vader could be redeemed.
The question is why didn't they want him to kill the Emperor?
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Darthdias
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
2/26/06 7:31am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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The question is why didn't they want him to kill the Emperor?
In my opinion: because they knew Luke wasn't nearly as powerful and would get owned if he even tried. Sure, Luke had the potential to one day match the Emperor, perhaps even become more powerful, but that would have taken years.
Luke however did something very succidal, that Obi-Wan and Yoda certainly never wanted him to do: he put himself into a position were he faced both Sith at once. Luke put his life in his fathers hands, beacuse if Luke did not turn there would have been no way for him to leave the throne room alive, unless Vader turned good. The amount of trust Luke put into Vader was almost suprisingly high, considering that Vader did cut off his hand earlier.
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Jedi_Freedom
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
2/26/06 7:31am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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thanks everyone. i wasn't saying luke would be an assasin. i wasn't sure what to think. always thought when i heard that he had to "confront" vader was just to try to get him to turn. so, i always thought it was presumptuous of luke to think he would have to kill him. but what you're saying "connects the dots" better for me. I think they are basically telling luke to kill him. seeing as obi wan tried to kill him twice. when he tells luke that he "must face darth vader again", i imagine it being like the first time that obi-wan tried to "confront" vader until he bascially realized -- only a sith deals in absolutes.....i will do what i must. I always wondered: why is it that luke has more faith that vader can be turned back to good? i always found it interesting that yoda and obiwan, two wise veterans who had a combined almost 1000 years jedi experience, were like "there's no chance". and luke still held out his hope and his faith. that's why i think luke is the smartest jedi of the whole saga. maybe luke had the advantage being vaders son and that's why he could turn him.
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Aeneas_Falco
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
2/26/06 8:30am
Subject:
RE: Luke's advice from Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ
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Only Luke foresaw the correct path. Neither Yoda or Obi Wan thought Anakin could be redeemed, so they thought Luke was supposed to kill Vader.
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