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Topic:
Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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Luke_SW
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
3/3 3:03pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
- Date Edited:
3/3 3:05pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Luke_SW
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RovinGambler posted:
I think that in the end all that Obi Wan cared about was the end of the Sith and he would have used any means to acheive it (so long as it didnt exceed the Jedi code). In the novelisation of ROTS Obi Wan says to Yoda that even though he has been close to Yoda since he was a youngling, he wouldnt hesitate to sacrifice Yoda's life if it meant ending the war one hour earlier. Yoda says that he would do the same to Obi Wan. And I think that that is still both their ways of thinking in the OT. Luke defeating the Emperor and Vader might have been a very slight hope, but it was still a hope. And Obi Wan didnt hesitate to manipulate Luke to possibly sacrifice his life to make an attempt. What was the worst that could happen? Luke would get killed or turn to the dark side (which wouldnt make all that much difference to the empire at that point anyway), so it was worth a try.
yeah, I've never been totally in love with Obi-Wan. He can seem a little shady at times. Like in ROTS when Padme is dying in the operation room, he doesn't seem to be too concerned about her, and doesn't even have anything to say to her during her dying words, "Obi-Wan, there's good in him, I know there is"
Even if he didn't agree with her, why not at least pretend to consider what she's telling you and not just stand there and watch her die. He seems to just be acting like "oh, she's dying, okay. well, what do we do with these darn kids?"
I expected that to a go a little more like Anakin's premonition, where Obi-Wan is at least trying to get her to hang on.
When Luke in ROTJ tries to convince him of the same thing, he just dismisses it and insists that Vader must be killed.
In AOTC he says of Padme, "she's a politician, she's not to be trusted" Uh, okay why not, JUST because she's a politician? Nevermind what she STANDS for and FIGHTS for as a politician. Nevermind the history you have with her, and the brave, compassionate, selfless things you witnessed her do for her people.
Even though Padme had nothing but the nicest things to say about HIM.
If "compassion is essential to a Jedi's life" as Anakin said, then why doesn't Obi-Wan seem to have more of it?
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DantSolo
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
4/13 11:04am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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<<<<yeah, I've never been totally in love with Obi-Wan. He can seem a little shady at times. Like in ROTS when Padme is dying in the operation room, he doesn't seem to be too concerned about her, and doesn't even have anything to say to her during her dying words, "Obi-Wan, there's good in him, I know there is" >>>
Obi's probably in a state of shock. Look at the day he's had! He's dueled and almost killed his best friend, the Jedi are all dead, the Republic has been destroyed, now he has to decide what to do with 2 infants as he watches Padme die. I don't think the right words for Padme would just be rolling off my tongue either, lol.
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/13 2:56pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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In fact I think it would be safe to say that Obi-Wan's life from then on is in a state of disorder. Everyone seems incredibly concerned with Luke's psyche, but no one seems to think of the fact that Ben has himself experienced far worse things than being told an incomplete version of something. He had experienced severe psychological trauma, probably moreso than Luke ever experienced during the course of the OT.
I don't think he was being untrue. He was speaking out of experience. In his experience, Sith did *not* turn back. Obi-Wan has seen what the Sith, particular Vader, have done. He tried to reason with Vader on Mustafar and did not want to kill him at all. But he had personally experienced how this had not worked and the devastation the Sith had caused in the wake of that. So how is it incorrect for him to have that assumption in the OT? Luke couldn't handle everything at once. Obi-Wan doesn't tell him out of love, because he knows what it is like to hear something like that, and it is precisely compassion that leads him not to dump it all on Luke until he's ready. And it is experience that tells him the only way to defeat the Sith is to confront them and selflessly try to destroy them.
Anakin's redemption is, in a way, a redemption for Obi-Wan as well. He had made mistakes with Anakin, sure. No one's perfect. But Luke, having been untouched by the past Obi-Wan had, was able to bring a fresh kind of compassion to the situation and show everyone that no one was beyond redemption. Which their experience hadn't told them.
To me, it makes perfect sense and I think it's important to think of Obi-Wan's character in terms of his past experience as well as his present aims. It's not like this is coming out of nowhere.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation  Obi-Wan Kenobi and Obi-Wan Kenobi in Ghost Ship Executor All Hail Cliegg's Blue Leg!
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
4/14 8:38am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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solojones posted:
In fact I think it would be safe to say that Obi-Wan's life from then on is in a state of disorder. Everyone seems incredibly concerned with Luke's psyche, but no one seems to think of the fact that Ben has himself experienced far worse things than being told an incomplete version of something. He had experienced severe psychological trauma, probably moreso than Luke ever experienced during the course of the OT.
I don't think he was being untrue. He was speaking out of experience. In his experience, Sith did *not* turn back. Obi-Wan has seen what the Sith, particular Vader, have done. He tried to reason with Vader on Mustafar and did not want to kill him at all. But he had personally experienced how this had not worked and the devastation the Sith had caused in the wake of that. So how is it incorrect for him to have that assumption in the OT? Luke couldn't handle everything at once. Obi-Wan doesn't tell him out of love, because he knows what it is like to hear something like that, and it is precisely compassion that leads him not to dump it all on Luke until he's ready. And it is experience that tells him the only way to defeat the Sith is to confront them and selflessly try to destroy them.
But Obi-wan unwittingly plants seeds of revenge within Luke's mind as a result of tricking him into believing that Anakin and Vader are 2 seperate people. Plus, Obi-wan made matters worse by getting himself killed by Vader which puts Luke in danger of turning to the Dark Side. I doubt that Obi-wan was going to tell Luke the truth at all because of that knowing that if Luke found out once his training is complete, he will hate Obi-wan for it and repeat Anakin's mistakes....namely, succumb to the Dark Side and become a Sith Lord.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/14 10:05am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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I think the plan was for Luke to be told after he had completed his training. Qui-Gon says as much in Dark Lord.
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But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:56pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
- Date Edited:
4/16 12:00am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Veloz posted:
Maybe it's just my point of view, but i see Luke as a reckless teenager and anxious in his ESB duel with Vader, i dont see anger and rage. To me, the perfect example of anger and rage was Anakin in his duels with Dooku. In both of them he clearly loses control of himself.
Luke was an unskilled Padawan at that time, he didn't have a chance for anger because he didn't have a chance period. But we see Luke when he knows he has skill (as Vader did when he fought Dooku) has the same arrogant anger and rage as his dad. Luke boiled up with anger and tried to slice Sidious open on DS2. Then he fought his father and hacked away like there was no tomorrow in his anger, got lucky and took his arm off instead of his head so that he could come to his senses before the dark side enveloped him. Luke had the equivalent anger and rage inside that Anakin had when he confronted Dooku. Luke lost control of himself in a huge way and it was Vader who stopped him the first time. As for the second time:
The difference was that when Anakin stopped himself on the point of killing Dooku, there was a man he'd grown to love like a father sitting there encouraging Anakin to kill the dangerous Sith Lord who'd captured and bound Papa Palpatine - and Anakin didn't feel any good in Dooku. When Luke stopped himself on the point of killing his dad, the same old man was there encourging him on, but he was a dastardly Sith Lord who Luke hated. And Luke could still feel good in his dad.
Not to justify Anakin's action, just to say that Luke too had the same famous Skywalker rage buildup, but the circumstances allowed for him to come to his senses the second time (although not the first time)in ROTJ - and in ESB, Luke fought like Anakin in TPM - lucky shots.
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"You will try"
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/16 12:54am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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PMT99 posted:
But Obi-wan unwittingly plants seeds of revenge within Luke's mind as a result of tricking him into believing that Anakin and Vader are 2 seperate people. Plus, Obi-wan made matters worse by getting himself killed by Vader which puts Luke in danger of turning to the Dark Side. I doubt that Obi-wan was going to tell Luke the truth at all because of that knowing that if Luke found out once his training is complete, he will hate Obi-wan for it and repeat Anakin's mistakes....namely, succumb to the Dark Side and become a Sith Lord.
1) Obi-Wan's not perfect. He makes mistakes. It's one of the things I adore about the character.
2) I think Obi-Wan's sacrifice was to distract Vader from Luke at the moment but also to show Luke how to *not* take revenge. Sure, it made Luke see Vader for what he was. But it was also a lesson in non-aggression. Ultimately, Luke follows that model of being a self-less, peaceful Jedi by refusing to kill Vader. That example of love and self-sacrifice is what awakens Anakin. So there was some downside, but all Obi-Wan could know was the example he was setting and the good he was trying to do.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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threepio_mania
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
4/16 9:40am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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When I was younger, I used to think that the "certain point of view" argument was kind of clever.
Then the last time I watched ROTJ it finally hit me. Obi-Wan is just a freaking liar liar, pants on fire. If I was Luke I would have said, "Ben, I appreciate the Jedi training and all, but that was a blatant lie and we both know it." 
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/16 10:58am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
- Date Edited:
4/16 11:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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solojones posted:
1) Obi-Wan's not perfect. He makes mistakes. It's one of the things I adore about the character.
2) I think Obi-Wan's sacrifice was to distract Vader from Luke at the moment but also to show Luke how to *not* take revenge. Sure, it made Luke see Vader for what he was. But it was also a lesson in non-aggression. Ultimately, Luke follows that model of being a self-less, peaceful Jedi by refusing to kill Vader. That example of love and self-sacrifice is what awakens Anakin. So there was some downside, but all Obi-Wan could know was the example he was setting and the good he was trying to do.
I don't know what you mean. Luke wasn't suppose to sacrifice himself to the Sith the way Ben had, he was supposed to kill the Sith - he was supposed to be aggressive, but sans anger. Why would Luke think Obi-Wan wanted revenge? For Anakin's death? If that was what you mean, then the minute that Luke found out Anakin was Vader, that lesson would be destroyed. I don't see a lesson about not taking revenge. But what I do think is that Obi-Wan did his best with both Anakin and Luke, it is just he had some failings as a Master (they all did really).
Nonetheless, Luke didn't follow the model of being self-less, peaceful Jedi. He went into the DS2 trying to do that at first and fell as fast as his father had as soon as Vader hit an emotional trigger. Luke went ballistic with anger and rage and was hacking his father for the kill when he hacked his hand off. That is what stopped him, a lucky amputation. Then Luke still didn't follow the model Jedi way - he threw his lightsaber away. A Jedi's lightsaber is their life and I will bet you any amount of money that Yoda and Ben hadn't advised him to do that. Luke elected the unwise road of suicide instead of falling to the dark side...without even attempting to get the job done the Jedi way and kill the Sith with determination. Perhaps he figured he couldn't do it, but he could have tried after he calmed down.
Luke got lucky again that his senses were true and Anakin busted loose and killed Vader then the Emperor or Luke would have been toast and Sidious and Vader would have continued to rule the galaxy - the last of the Jedi would have truly been dead and all hope lost. Of course there was the chance Vader would come to his senses on his own after that, but if Luke couldn't win him over then there wasn't much more to give him an incentive - well maybe Leia. Anakin got lucky too - that Vader hadn't smothered him completely (so to speak).
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/16 5:35pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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Obi-Wan thought it was necessary for Luke to kill Vader, because in his experience, Vader wouldn't listen to reason. But he was setting an example of not being spiteful and angry, and that if worse came to worse, it would be better to die than fight out of anger. Obviously he wanted Luke to be able to kill Vader because he felt he would need to. But not at the cost of losing his soul. It was the spirit of the example set. That coupled with Yoda's teaching on Luke's failure at the cave. They were telling *and* showing him what it meant to be a Jedi. Ultimately, that's the example he used, but added to it his own pureness and ability to draw Anakin back, which was even above their example.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/16 11:43pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
- Date Edited:
4/16 11:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I dunno...I think you give Obi-Wan and Yoda too much credit. I think Luke was the man because he went in NOT planning to kill his father (even tho he couldn't control his anger later). Obi-Wan and Yoda told him to go for the kill (Obi-Wan overtly). They based their thoughts on the old Jedi adages - no one returns from the dark side and there is no hope for Vader. Luke defied them.
I do think that Obi-Wan and Yoda's teachings overall would be awesome for Luke as he went on in life, but they screwed up big time over the confrontation issue. They didn't understand attachment in the same way because neither of them had children or fathers they knew. Luke could sense things in his dad that they could not. Obi-Wan had attachment with Anakin, but it wasn't at the same level of blood relatives in the Force.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
4/20 10:19am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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solojones posted:
1) Obi-Wan's not perfect. He makes mistakes. It's one of the things I adore about the character.
2) I think Obi-Wan's sacrifice was to distract Vader from Luke at the moment but also to show Luke how to *not* take revenge. Sure, it made Luke see Vader for what he was. But it was also a lesson in non-aggression. Ultimately, Luke follows that model of being a self-less, peaceful Jedi by refusing to kill Vader. That example of love and self-sacrifice is what awakens Anakin. So there was some downside, but all Obi-Wan could know was the example he was setting and the good he was trying to do.
-sj loves kevin spacey
If Obi-wan didn't want Luke to seek revenge against Vader, then getting himself killed did NOT make that message clear. All it did was motivate Luke to be the opposite of the model Jedi that Obi-wan was teaching him to be as shown in the Dark Side cave and on the 2nd Death Star where Luke was pounding Vader to the ground.
If Vader had kept his mouth shut about being Luke's father, then Luke would've been lost to the Dark Side just as Vader was.
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/20 1:09pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?
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I definitely have never ever thought Obi-Wan let Vader kill him to make Luke hate Vader. No way. Never the impression I've got from that scene. I can think of a host of other reasons, but that one just doesn't make sense to me. If it had unintended side effects, maybe.
They based their thoughts on the old Jedi adages - no one returns from the dark side and there is no hope for Vader. Luke defied them.
No. They weren't basing this on theory. Remember Mustafar? Obi-Wan absolutely positively did not want to kill Anakin. Not at all. If he did, he would have just gotten down to it. Instead, Obi-Wan tried to reason with Anakin. He pleaded with him. This wasn't something he marched into easily and it was the last thing in the world he wanted to do to kill Anakin. He was incredibly torn up when he thought he had killed him.
So no, he's not going off theory. He's going off his own experience with Anakin. It's not some spiteful plan or hatred. Mentally, his mind sort of has to protect him by believing that Anakin is gone. Otherwise, everything would have been harder to take than it already was. He didn't want to believe Anakin was still in there, suffering. He believed he saw Anakin completely die on Mustafar.
Now, obviously, he was wrong. But it wasn't an intentional malice. It was what he knew. Luke was not burdened by those experiences, and was thus able to have a different view and help bring Anakin back. Obi-Wan didn't want him to kill Anakin. He wanted him to kill Vader, because in his experience he truly believed Anakin was dead.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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