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Author Topic: Does ROTJ refer to...
Darth_Davi 
Registered: Jul '05
17804_Jedi
Date Posted: 10/29/07 1:19pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/29/07 1:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Davi
Grand_Moff_Jawa posted:


That's not what I said at all. I asked if Vader would have spared Luke if his life wasn't in jeopardy. The plan was to turn Luke to the dark side and Vader fully intended to do just that. Thanks, dad! However, Vader didn't count on Luke throwing down his saber, thereby putting himself in mortal danger. When Luke was about to be killed, that changed the game for Vader and his impulse was to save Luke's life instead of turning him to the dark side. But that doesn't constitute the return of a Jedi.


Again, there is ample debate as to what Vader intended, some argue he did make a spur of the moment decision, others say that he, like Luke, was stalling for time, in much the same way his duel with Luke on Cloud City was merely a test of Luke's skills, and Vader had absolutely no intention of killing Luke. I would ask though, what is the point of saving Luke's life when it ISN'T in jeopardy? How could Vader spare Luke's life if Luke's life was not in a position to need sparing? Vader may have originally intended to overthrow Palpatine, and rule the galaxy with Luke, but, that doesn't prevent him from changing his mind, does it? He didn't expect Luke to be so persistent in his faith that Anakin Skywalker could be redeemed. Basically, Darth Vader settled for converting Luke, and overthrowing Palpatine, because he didn't think he was capable of returning to the Light Side. Only because of Luke's love for his father did that option become available to Anakin. When the time came, Anakin decided not to kill the Emperor to replace him, he decided to kill the Emperor to save his son. His motivation was not to usurp Palpatine's throne, as he may have originally intended, his motivation to was protect his son. When push came to shove, Anakin Skywalker won, not Darth Vader. Vader was faced with an ultimatum. Stay Darth Vader, and allow Palpatine to kill Luke, or reject Vader, be Anakin Skywalker, and protect his son. When he HAD to make the decision, he chose to be Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader. He chose his son over the Emperor.

Grand_Moff_Jawa posted:
So all it takes to be a Jedi again is to don the robe? Nice. That doesn't answer my question at all. What about accountability for years of evil?


Well, using your police officer example, he served his time, didn't he? Isn't that how you phrased it? Your police officer served his time, and once released, is no longer accountable. He served his debt to society. In Anakin's case, had he lived, its entirely possible that either the New Republic would execute him (although, Luke and Leia might have problems with that) or they would use him. Anakin Skywalker surviving ROTJ would mean the New Republic has a source of Imperial information beyond what they could ever dream of. Theoretically, Anakin Skywalker may have paid his debt to the galaxy by spearheading the New Republic's elimination of the Empire, as a way of atonement. But, he dies before he can ever do that. What is clear at the end of ROTJ however, which, you have never answered, is why, if Anakin does not return to being a Jedi, does he then appear as a Force ghost standing next to Yoda and Ben? Why, if they did not accept him back into the spiritual Jedi fold, are they smiling? Yoda and Ben accepted Anakin Skywalker back as a brother. Your argument never takes into account that while you may think he has further debt to serve, The Force doesn't. Anakin Skywalker dies a Jedi, not a Sith. Had Lucas not included Anakin in that scene, perhaps you could argue otherwise. Because Anakin is included though, it proves that he was a Jedi at the time of his death. You have consistently ignored that crucial scene, because you know that if you acknowledge it, your entire argument loses all validity. That Anakin Skywalker died as a Jedi and not a Sith Lord is irrefutable because of that scene. Former Jedi turns Sith Lord then returns to being a Jedi before his death.

Darth_Davi posted:


Obviously I knew that the movie was originally titled Revenge of the Jedi, since I mentioned it in a previous post. Had you been paying attention, you would have known that. But no, it doesn't put shame to my argument at all. In fact, I could even make a case for Revenge of the Jedi being about Anakin's getting revenge on Palpatine and the Sith.


I think that pretty much ends this discussion for me. Good luck to you. peace
[/quote]

Meanwhile, you have never explained how Revenge of the Jedi could apply to Luke. If you want to challenge me on Anakin being the subject of Return of the Jedi by invoking the original title, Revenge of the Jedi, you then have to explain how the original title applies to Luke, and not Anakin. Since you can't do that, without completely destroying your own argument, using Revenge/Return is a complete red herring, and proves nothing either way. Obviously, you think you won, because if Anakin was getting revenge on Palpatine and the Sith, thats not Jedi like, so he wasn't a Jedi. But, then you have to explain how Revenge could apply to Luke, without me being able to use that exact argument back.

referring to Anakin as Revenge of the Jedi: Anakin gets his revenge on the Emperor. I don't really think anyone could argue otherwise, if Lucas had kept the original title, and it referred to Anakin. You can make the case that Anakin gets his revenge, and it would be easy to do. Criticism would be that revenge isn't something good Jedi do.

referring to Luke as Revenge of the Jedi: Problem is in explaining exactly what revenge Luke gets, and then the same criticism as with Anakin, revenge isn't something Jedi should do.

referring to Anakin as Return of the Jedi: See the sum of all my posts.

referring to Luke as Return of the Jedi: How does Luke return, and from where? How can he be a returning a Jedi, when he was never a former Jedi? How could he return into one, when he never was one before?

The problem is, if we included the PT into this discussion, I don't think anyone would argue against Return of the Jedi possibly alluding to Anakin Skywalker. Those that claim it is all about Luke have no chance of convincing anyone if we include the PT, and I suspect you know that. The PT completely changes the entire Star Wars saga from being about Luke to being about Anakin, with Luke as the agent of change at the end. From a Saga standpoint, Anakin is the overall main character, not Luke, and the title's reference to Anakin would be a lot easier to see. But, even ignoring the PT entirely, there is plenty of evidence contained solely within the OT that points to Anakin as well. The PT isn't needed for me to make my case, even though its inclusion would only help. There is enough information contained within Return of the Jedi itself to use.

Darth Vader, Sith Lord, dies in Palpatine's throne room.
Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Knight, dies in the hangar bay.

 

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Master_Starwalker 
Registered: Sep '03
17815_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/29/07 1:30pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/29/07 1:33pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
Darth_Davi posted:
referring to Luke as Revenge of the Jedi: Problem is in explaining exactly what revenge Luke gets, and then the same criticism as with Anakin, revenge isn't something Jedi should do.


Simple, Luke gets his revenge when he takes Vader's hand. He then backs away from the edge of the darkness and it's the turning point of the film.

Darth_Davi posted:
referring to Luke as Return of the Jedi: How does Luke return, and from where? How can he be a returning a Jedi, when he was never a former Jedi? How could he return into one, when he never was one before?


See my earlier post.

 

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Darth_Davi 
Registered: Jul '05
17804_Jedi
Date Posted: 10/29/07 1:41pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/29/07 1:43pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Davi

Master_Starwalker posted:

Simple, Luke gets his revenge when he takes Vader's hand. He then backs away from the edge of the darkness and it's the turning point of the film.


So, why is it a turning point only for Luke? Would it not also be a potential turning point for Anakin?


Master_Starwalker posted:
Revenge of the Jedi as for the Order, the Empire is destroyed and the Emperor and Vader are dead by the hands of a Jedi.


Hmmm, it appears you went back and edited this line out...perhaps you anticipated my rather obvious counter to it, and how much it proves my point.

But, here it is anyway. The Emperor and Vader are dead by the hands of a Jedi. That Jedi is also named Skywalker. Its just not Luke, its Anakin. Anakin destroyed Vader when he made the choice to protect his son, and the Emperor is destroyed by Anakin throwing him into the pit. Anakin did that, not Luke. Luke was helpless and in the middle of getting himself killed. It was ANAKIN who destroys the Sith, not Luke. THUS, it is Anakin who is the Jedi in the title, not Luke. Regardless of whether the title is Revenge of the Jedi or Return of the Jedi, it is ANAKIN who gets revenge, it is ANAKIN who returns.

 

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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Grand_Moff_Jawa 
Registered: May '01
44383_Jawa
Date Posted: 10/29/07 1:42pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/29/07 1:53pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Grand_Moff_Jawa
Darth_Davi posted:


Meanwhile, you have never explained how Revenge of the Jedi could apply to Luke.


It CAN'T, which is why the title was changed. Jedi don't take revenge. I never said they did.

Darth_Davi posted:


If you want to challenge me on Anakin being the subject of Return of the Jedi by invoking the original title, Revenge of the Jedi, you then have to explain how the original title applies to Luke, and not Anakin.


My point wasn't that the original title refers to Luke, but that it makes it impossible for the movie to be about Anakin, since Anakin never takes revenge on anybody. He became Vader of his own free will! The movie was never about Anakin, either from a revenge or return point of view! It doesn't WORK as revenge for the reason I stated above and the only Jedi left standing to carry on the Jedi order is LUKE. How can the Jedi return to existence if all the Jedi are ghosts? They can't! Therefore, the beginning of the Jedi's return begins with Luke.

Maybe you are bored with the OT and you need to look at it differently in lieu of the PT. That's your choice, but it doesn't change what the original intent of the movie was for the past 20+ years.

Ask 1,000 fans who saw ROTJ in theaters back in 1983 what the title means and you'll see what I mean. And please don't tell me that George says the movie is about Anakin, as George changes his story as often as he changes his flannel shirts.

laugh

 

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Master_Starwalker 
Registered: Sep '03
17815_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/29/07 1:46pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/29/07 1:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
Darth_Davi posted:

Master_Starwalker posted:

Simple, Luke gets his revenge when he takes Vader's hand. He then backs away from the edge of the darkness and it's the turning point of the film.


So, why is it a turning point only for Luke? Would it not also be a potential turning point for Anakin?


It's not, but Luke's the main character of the OT and back in 1983 that's what Star Wars was.


Darth_Davi posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Revenge of the Jedi as for the Order, the Empire is destroyed and the Emperor and Vader are dead by the hands of a Jedi.


Hmmm, it appears you went back and edited this line out...perhaps you anticipated my rather obvious counter to it, and how much it proves my point.


I edited it out partially because you had already addressed it earlier, but the point is still valid.

Darth_Davi posted:
But, here it is anyway. The Emperor and Vader are dead by the hands of a Jedi. That Jedi is also named Skywalker. Its just not Luke, its Anakin. Anakin destroyed Vader when he made the choice to protect his son, and the Emperor is destroyed by Anakin throwing him into the pit. Anakin did that, not Luke. Luke was helpless and in the middle of getting himself killed. It was ANAKIN who destroys the Sith, not Luke. THUS, it is Anakin who is the Jedi in the title, not Luke. Regardless of whether the title is Revenge of the Jedi or Return of the Jedi, it is ANAKIN who gets revenge, it is ANAKIN who returns.


Anakin has no reason to get revenge against Palpatine as he willingly sold his soul to him. Revenge implies that Palpatine wronged Anakin in some way when he never did. This is especially true in the backstory as Lucasfilm told it prior to the Prequel Trilogy.

 

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Darth_Davi 
Registered: Jul '05
17804_Jedi
Date Posted: 10/29/07 1:56pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...

Grand_Moff_Jawa posted:
My point wasn't that the original title refers to Luke, but that it makes it impossible for the movie to be about Anakin, since Anakin never takes revenge on anybody.[quote]


Other than throwing his master down the pit for trying to kill his son, you mean.



[quote=Grand_Moff_Jawa] The movie was never about Anakin, either from a revenge or return point of view! It doesn't WORK as revenge for the reason I stated above and the only Jedi left standing to carry on the Jedi order is LUKE. How can the Jedi return to existence if all the Jedi are ghosts? They can't! Therefore, the beginning of the Jedi's return begins with Luke.


Again, you are stuck on Return of the Jedi having to be plural. It doesn't. It could refer to a Jedi as a singular person. Considering Lucas has never had a plan for after Jedi, how do you know that he intended for the Jedi Order to be restored at all? You are assuming that in 1983, Lucas fully intended for Luke to train others and restore the Jedi Order, but, its completely baseless. There is absolutely no evidence that points to that. Everything that occurs post ROTJ is EU, and not Lucas's vision.

Grand_Moff_Jawa posted:
Maybe you are bored with the OT and you need to look at it differently in lieu of the PT. That's your choice, but it doesn't change what the original intent of the movie was for the past 20+ years.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? I have consistently maintained that I am NOT looking at ROTJ from a saga inclusive perspective, that I have ONLY been interpreting whats there from the OT. What part of me saying that there is enough evidence contained solely within the OT leads you to believe I was looking at it differently because of the PT? I have specifically stated that I was NOT looking at it from that perspective. GEEZ. Let me put it this way. Ever since I saw ROTJ in the theaters, back in 1983, I have interpreted the title as referring to Anakin, based on what is in the movie. I have held that HE was the subject of the title, and not Luke, for the past 24 years, long before the PT. I believed it was about Anakin when there was no "Original" Trilogy, there was just the Star Wars Trilogy.

Grand_Moff_Jawa posted:
Ask 1,000 fans who saw the ROTJ in theaters back in 1983 what the title means and you'll see what I mean. And please don't tell me that George says the movie is about Anakin, as George changes his story as often as he changes his flannel shirts. laugh


Have I used any quotes from Lucas at all? Have I even suggested that there were quotes that proved me right? What is the point of telling me not to tell you what George says, when I haven't even tried? The fact that you are worried about it at all, trying to automatically dismiss it as off hand, tells me all that I need to know about how much faith you have in your own position.

 

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Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Grand_Moff_Jawa 
Registered: May '01
44383_Jawa
Date Posted: 10/29/07 2:07pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/29/07 2:08pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Grand_Moff_Jawa
Look, enough quoting. It's simple. I believe one thing and you believe something else. I am more than confident in my position, as it's been in effect for over 20 years. You have not proven a thing with your statements and I have no desire to prove mine, as the meaning of the title has been clear since 1983. Good day to you. My forehead hurts from banging it on the keyboard anyway. LOL!

peace

 

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Arawn_Fenn 
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 10/29/07 3:58pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
Now you know how I feel about "A Hero Lost".

 

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DarthSceptre 
Registered: Oct '07
Date Posted: 10/29/07 9:09pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to... - Date Edited: 10/30/07 4:10am (2 edits total) Edited By: PulsarSkate
No one has stopped to think that maybe Anakin took Revenge on his Sith Master by being fed up with his Dark Side Lies, Deceiet, ** and then throwing Palpy over the rail.Saving his son/daughter as well from this act doesnt mean a pathway to becoming a good jedi again,but it did redeem him.Maybe its Judas repented!

I always took it as Vader had enough of the Dark side ** and came back to the good side for a few.Never meant the story was about him returning as Jedi...The PT has molded the OT into the Tragedy of Darth Vader or Anakin...that was never the intent back in 82 while filming.GL said himself Luke being the rebirth of the new Jedi,and the Jedi dont take revenge,had to rework his title as well as the other movies out there inspired them not to sound like a xerox copy at the time.

Also,Luke as rebirth,starting point to the Jedi coming back,isnt Plural?..well neither is the Sith,or later,Revenge Of The Sith,even though it is supposed to be 2 and is plural without the S.





Please star out any disallowed words

 
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Darth_Drachonus 
Registered: Oct '05
23983_Anakin
Date Posted: 11/2/07 7:36pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Wow, harsh. Just..harsh

Even though Lucas may change his mind about things every day. he has explicitly stated that the Star Wars Saga is Anakin Skywalker's story. Even back in 83, Return of the Jedi referred to in my young mind to Anakin Skywalker. The Saga being complete simply set it in concrete for me. There is a right, and a wrong answer. None of us know what it is, we simply have our opinions. And it looks like Lucas isn't spewing anything to quell this debate any time soon

 

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Master_Starwalker 
Registered: Sep '03
17815_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/2/07 8:56pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
And even then Lucas's answers wouldn't be concrete since what a title refers to can largely be a matter of interpretation.

 

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Darth_Davi 
Registered: Jul '05
17804_Jedi
Date Posted: 11/3/07 10:22am Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
Except if Lucas were to state clearly that the title referred to someone specific, then everyone who thinks its about someone else would be wrong. Lucas would be the final authority, as he is the one that came up with both Revenge of the Jedi and Return of the Jedi. If he says the title refers to Anakin, it refers to Anakin, end of story. If he says it refers to Luke, it refers to Luke. If he says its really a double meaning, referring to both Luke and Anakin, then it refers to both, and we are all right and wrong at the same time. Lucas has that kind of authority when it comes to Star Wars. If he says it is one way, anyone who disagrees is simply wrong. His creation, not ours. If Lucas were to state that the title refers solely to Luke Skywalker, I would immediately change my position, as he would be the one to know who the title refers to, more than anyone.

 

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Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Master_Starwalker 
Registered: Sep '03
17815_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/3/07 10:49am Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
It would be concrete that the intended reference was to whoever he said, however that wouldn't mean a viewer couldn't see it as referring to someone else and given that Star Wars is art, it's subjective.

 

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Alpha-Red 
Registered: Apr '04
18200_TIE Fighter
Date Posted: 11/3/07 11:15am Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
I can only see the title referring to the Jedi Order as a whole. I mean, Anakin is never referred to as being the Jedi, and Luke isn't really returning from anything.

 
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Jedi-knight-25 
Registered: Aug '07
Date Posted: 11/3/07 7:34pm Subject: RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
I always thought that "Return of the Jedi" meant that the Jedi were returning becuase Luke became a Jedi, so with Luke becoming a Jedi the Jedi returned.

 
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