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Topic:
Does ROTJ refer to...
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Darth_Drachonus
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
11/3/07 8:09pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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Master_Starwalker posted:
And even then Lucas's answers wouldn't be concrete since what a title refers to can largely be a matter of interpretation.
QFT It's all about interpretation and perception
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MasterACyard
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
11/12/07 7:56pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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Back in 83 we all (most of us)thought it was the story of Luke Skywalker; his return....he had been defeated in ESB, his return to Tatooine, his return to his friends, the rebellion, Dagobah, etc.
But in this movie, upon his return to dagobah, he proclaims, "Then I AM a Jedi." Where Yoda's reply was "not yet......Vader, you must confront Vader....ONLY then a Jedi will you be". So it wasn't quite the return of luke the jedi in anyway whatsoever because he wasn't one.
We know now that after all six movies, it's Anakin/Vader's story. it's all about him.
The climax of the movie was vader throwing the emperor down the shaft, which signified a concrete transformation of Vader BACK into Anakin, Vaders slow decline from the darkside after a noticeble change in his character as opposed to the previous film....
Anyway, the "help me take this mask off...." scene reconfirmed to us that he was back as anakin and the force ghost shows a return of anakin back to his Jedi state, displayed even more clearly in the 2004 DVD version with Hayden whatever his name is.
The Revenge title in 83 still referred to Vader/Anakin, but Revenge still has an evil connotation to it and as previously stated, jedi don't seek revenge (but they DO have nightmares).
This has been my take on the tile of Episode 6 for a few years now.
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Apart from his pay, which is considerable, George demanded only one thing-- an unaltered OT for himself. Curious, isn't it?
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RedSeven
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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It refers to the Jedi, Luke, and Anakin, but I've always thought of the title referring to Luke and Anakin specifically.
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May the Force be With You!
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DarkStarkiller
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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great response, people. I didn't know this thread would get that many replies LOL
Really it's for the people to interpret. Some think it refers to Luke, giving good reasons. Some think it refers to Anakin, also giving good reasons.
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T-R-
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 9:18am
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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Master_Starwalker posted:
jedimasterbac posted:
It originally referred to Luke returning and becoming a Jedi, I believe. Now, in light of the prequels, it also refers to the return of the Jedi Order and the return of Anakin Skywalker.
It was definitely only referring to Luke originally.
Definately only to Luke and the order in general considering Anakin wasn't redeemed in the first several drafts.
Also notice:
The Phantom Menace and A New Hope refer to individuals
Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back refer to military/government organizations
Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi refer to force using orders
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Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One
Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns
Two Prophecies
Two Destinies
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T-R-
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 9:22am
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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Considering Lucas has never had a plan for after Jedi, how do you know that he intended for the Jedi Order to be restored at all? You are assuming that in 1983, Lucas fully intended for Luke to train others and restore the Jedi Order, but, its completely baseless. There is absolutely no evidence that points to that.
Except Lucas' may 1983 interview in which he states what episodes VII-IX would deal with.
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Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One
Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns
Two Prophecies
Two Destinies
ONE SAGA
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 9:38am
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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MasterACyard posted:
The Revenge title in 83 still referred to Vader/Anakin
How do we know this?
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bluesaber70
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 2:48pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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It's the return of Anakin Skywalker. Star Wars is really his story.
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In the end God wins and Jesus is King.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 6:00pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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It is now. It wasn't back in 1983.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 8:42pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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Master_Starwalker posted:
It is now. It wasn't back in 1983.
Except Lucas has consistently stated that what we call the OT was merely the middle act in his overarching story. How do we know that he didn't already have ideas about the PT, being the background for Darth Vader, before then? He already had the idea that Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi...and then came up with Anakin really being Darth Vader. As he is writing ROTJ, the climax of Luke's storyline is the redemption of his father, Anakin Skywalker. Thats not now, thats back when he is writing the script of ROTJ back in 81 or 82. Even back then, disregarding the entire PT as films, and only using what knowledge we had back in 1983, you still have Anakin Skywalker returning to the light side, returning as a Jedi. To suggest that Lucas couldn't have been considering that as the meaning, or double meaning, back then does not make logical sense. Clearly, there is evidence that the title applies to Anakin Skywalker, even if you completely ignore TPM, AOTC and ROTS.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/8/07 8:54pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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I'm not saying the title couldn't have referred to Anakin. I'm just saying that it wasn't Anakin Skywalker's story back in 1983, regardless of intent. Back then Star Wars was only 3 films after all. All of which focused on Luke.
In addition, I've seen no proof that Lucas had the idea of Anakin being the main character back then. One of the sequels were going to be "the young days of Ben Kenobi." He also was planning 9 films which wouldn't work if Anakin was the main character given that Vader was always going to die in the sixth film whether or not it was the final film of the series or just the final film of the middle trilogy.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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bluesaber70
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
12/9/07 3:49am
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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It was back in '83. Otherwise ROTJ would have been a bad title. But, he was redeemed and his story was finished.
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In the end God wins and Jesus is King.
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DarkStarkiller
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
12/9/07 12:50pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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T-R- posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
jedimasterbac posted:
It originally referred to Luke returning and becoming a Jedi, I believe. Now, in light of the prequels, it also refers to the return of the Jedi Order and the return of Anakin Skywalker.
It was definitely only referring to Luke originally.
Also notice:
The Phantom Menace and A New Hope refer to individuals
Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back refer to military/government organizations
Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi refer to force using orders
huh, I never noticed that. Good observation
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/9/07 1:08pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
- Date Edited:
12/9/07 1:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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bluesaber70 posted:
It was back in '83. Otherwise ROTJ would have been a bad title. But, he was redeemed and his story was finished.
No, it wasn't. There's no evidence which supports the claim that it was Anakin's story in 1983. There were only three films and they focused on Luke Skywalker, not Darth Vader.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/07 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: Does ROTJ refer to...
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Master_Starwalker posted:
bluesaber70 posted:
It was back in '83. Otherwise ROTJ would have been a bad title. But, he was redeemed and his story was finished.
No, it wasn't. There's no evidence which supports the claim that it was Anakin's story in 1983. There were only three films and they focused on Luke Skywalker, not Darth Vader.
This is a false argument, as there is no evidence which supports the claim that it wasn't Anakin's story either. Even though Luke was the main character in the OT, The Empire Strikes Back as a movie title has nothing to do with him, unless it refers to Vader's cutting Luke's hand off, in which case the title is more about Vader than Luke, which would only add to the ROTJ refers to Vader theory. If the Empire is striking back against Luke, it is Vader who does the striking. The main character does not have to be the subject of the title. I can think of oh...pretty much every James Bond movie, how many actually refer to 007 in the title? I just rewatched the DVD for ROTJ last night, with the audio commentary by Lucas, Ben Burtt, Carrie Fisher, etc. There were a few instances where Lucas specifically states the culmination of the film is Vader's redemption. At about 5:30 in, while C3PO and R2 make their way into Jabba's Palace, if you listen to the audio commentary, you hear this from George Lucas:
"The original story was really about primitive society really overcoming the Empire, and Luke managing to redeem his father". The statement could be interpreted as being pro-Luke, or pro-Vader, but it does show that even back in 1983, Lucas was fully aware that he wanted to have Anakin's redemption as one of the major themes of the film, and not just an afterthought.
Then, at the 19:15 mark, right after Han is unfrozen from Carbonite, he adds:
"The Han Solo journey is a continuation of the motif of death, and rebirth which is the overall central theme of this whole series in relationship to Darth Vader coming out of his evil hibernation and being reborn as Anakin Skywalker". Uh oh. Central theme of series is the reawakening of Anakin Skywalker from Darth Vader? Sounds like a Jedi being returned to me...
Return of the Jedi equals the return of Anakin Skywalker. There is nothing to suggest that Lucas meant the return of the Jedi Order, but there is evidence to suggest he meant the return of Anakin Skywalker. Considering Luke doesn't actually return from anywhere, how can it refer to him? Where does Luke return from? Dagobah? Where is he returning to? He has never been on the Death Star II before, so he can't be returning there...Yet, when we ask the same question of Anakin Skywalker, we have answers. Where does Anakin Skywalker return from? He returns from the Dark Side, and his evil alter ego of Darth Vader. Where is he returning to? He is returning to his Jedi status, as a servant of the Light Side of the Force. What evidence do we have to further support this? Anakin's appearance as a Force Ghost, regardless of which version of ROTJ you have (it makes no difference if we are talking about the original Sebastian Shaw scene or the Special Edition Hayden Christensen scene) Anakin is SHOWN with Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi, having fully returned.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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