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Topic:
Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/24 2:11pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
- Date Edited:
2/24 2:18pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Darth_Davi posted:
And yet that is exactly what gets accomplished, isn't it? His former Jedi Masters trained him to do exactly that...I just think you are hung up on how you are defining "destroy". If Luke merely wanted to talk to daddy again, he could have done so while still on Endor. Yet, he willingly goes with Vader to the Death Star, where he knows he will be taken to the Emperor. Luke gets what he wants...the only Jedi in the galaxy in the same room as the only two Sith in the galaxy. Luke throws down his lightsaber not because he refuses to kill his father. He does it because he realizes that he is angry, that Palpatine has successfully manipulated him to the point that he is using the dark side to do it. It wasn't the act, it was the attitude. Luke would have struck down his father if he deemed in necessary. He tried to convert him back, but that is just a case of hoping for the best, and planning for the worst. Luke knew going in that if he failed to talk his father into turning back, that he might be forced to kill him. He had a duty as the only Jedi in the galaxy to try to eliminate the Sith, one way or another. And what happens? When Luke enters the Death Star, there are two Sith. When Luke leaves the Death Star, there are none. Mission accomplished.
I see what you are saying, but it isn't quite right because Luke threw his lightsaber away - you can't exactly kill two Sith Lords without one. Luke's mission was never to destroy the Sith - that was Yoda and Obi-Wan's mission for him. Luke walked in to the death star attempting to redeem his father and he did it - he facilitated Anakin's return and allowed for his father's redemption. From there Luke's mission was complete and he was a hero. But make no mistake - Anakin had to CHOOSE to follow the path Luke opened up for him, he could have let Sidious kill Luke and gone on being a Sith. So it was Anakin who overcame Vader (with Luke being the redeemer) and that is when Anakin fulfilled the prophecy as the chosen one - finally destroying the Sith once and for all and bringing balance to the force.
Luke's role was crucial because he could have killed Vader and game over. But Luke is a hero precisely because he remained focused on his goal of redeeming his dad and didn't allow his momentary dance with the dark side, or Yoda and Obi-Wan's desires distract him from that ultimate purpose.
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"You will try"
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BigBoy29
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
2/24 3:39pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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TwiLekJedi posted:
Yeah, he didn't manipulate events Palpatinesque so that his capture would guarantee the downfall of the Sith.
But I'd still call the whole Vader business a "higher purpose than the Rebellion"
Many folks do ... but did Luke?
I would have liked to see a scene where Luke is frantically looking to transmit a message to GoldLeader or Ackbar to "call off the strike! I got Vader - and the Emperor is dead! Call it off!"
OR
Prior to the battle, Luke giving a line to Mothma or Ackbar about saying ... "Hey, if I can get my dad to switch, we can end this war today!"
Something like that would reinforce that the 'Vader business' was his ultimate purpose.
But as it stands, I don't think there's enough evidence to say Luke was more concerned with the Sith - as opposed to the Empire.
I think alot of this speculation about Luke comes from the PT. Since 1999 when Jinn told everyone to leave and "we'll handle this .." we have had this notion that the Jedi/Sith struggle is more special or "higher" to the War.
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Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe".
Han: "Hey remember, I won her fair and square."
Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/24 6:53pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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He thinks it more important because he uh leaves to do it. Why would he do that if he thought it didn't matter as much? He does what he thinks he has to do and lets the Rebels do what they think they have to do
The Death Star still needed to be destroyed. Why would the gunners stop firing? They have a standing order to fire at will. Dead Sith Lords can't (and if they can, won't) tell them to stop.
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Because we can
For the good of all of us
Except the ones who are dead
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BigBoy29
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
2/25 2:02am
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
- Date Edited:
2/25 2:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BigBoy29
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TwiLekJedi posted:
He thinks it more important because he uh leaves to do it. Why would he do that if he thought it didn't matter as much? He does what he thinks he has to do and lets the Rebels do what they think they have to do
The Death Star still needed to be destroyed. Why would the gunners stop firing? They have a standing order to fire at will. Dead Sith Lords can't (and if they can, won't) tell them to stop.
Because Luke and Vader were close to being blown up .... Luke might have tried to transmit a cease or pause fire since him and his dying pops were about to be blown up.
I don't think he cared about being the last Jedi or anything.
EDIT: oh yeah, and just because people "leave to do things" - doe'nt make those things higher - Anakin killing T.Raiders, that Ewok who stole the bike, etc.
Luke did something he wanted, maybe a little greedy? Can you see it that way?
-----signature-----
Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe".
Han: "Hey remember, I won her fair and square."
Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/25 6:32am
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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As a Jedi, aspiring or real one, he would have sacrificed himself to stop the Death Star. I'm sure Anakin would have agreed. Just because Luke thinks it's more important to him to save his dad, doesn't mean he'll interfere with the Rebels.
Anakin didn't leave to kill the Tuskens, he left to save his mother - that was obviously the most important thing to him, above his order from the Jedi Council to protect the Senator who happens to be the love of his life. If that doesn't mean it's important, nothing does. Killing the Tuskens was just as much a reaction as rushing at Vader for threatening your sister. Nothing to do with thinking.
-----signature-----
We do what we must
Because we can
For the good of all of us
Except the ones who are dead
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skyysoblue
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
2/25 2:11pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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I always envisioned the two events being intertwined through the force. As long as the cloud of the dark side of the force enveloped the battlefield, the rebels did not have a chance. Luke, by drawing the ire of the Emperor and Vader towards him (and also creating conflict within vader) was able to lift the cloud of the dark side of the force from the battle field.
If luke is on the planet when the shield generator goes down, Vader is free to hop in his fighter and prevent the death star from being destroyed.
If luke is not occupying the emperor and vader, then the field commander at the base gives constant relays about the tactical situation and does not do bonehead things like open the doors and send the rest of the troops into the forest....
If the emperor and vader escape the destruction of the death star, they go to the nearest star destroyer and lead the attack of the fleet against the scattered rebel fleet.....
with the emperor dead, the galaxy is forced to find a new leader....
the battle in the throne room is not just an afterthought....
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TaunTaunHerder
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
3/4 9:13pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
- Date Edited:
3/4 9:19pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TaunTaunHerder
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Should the Rebels have lost the Battle Of Endor?
Hmm.
I think that anytime your allies are intelligent teddy bears that have trouble seeing over a countertop, much less plausibly defeating a detachment of Stormtroopers and Biker Scouts, then yes, the Rebels should have lost, but, see, Uncle George was apparently fresh out of ideas and he also had to end the trilogy at some point.
If any of them Ewoks had tried to tie me to a pole like some deer, we would've had a problem.
If I was a smuggler with an eight-foot tall space Sasquatch who had my back, I'm not havin' some teddy bear
thing rollin' up on the set.
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MasterLuke83
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/5 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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I think more focus on the bows and arrows being able to be fired at a rapid speed wouldve sold the idea more that it can pierce a troopers armor (Ala "Predators" shot of the improvised arrow piercing a tree). I understood what they were aiming for in ROTJ but id probably clearly show how these Ewoks pulled this job off.
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BigBoy29
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
3/5 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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Yeah ... it was campy fun.
If you watch AOTC battle, then watch ROTJ - it's like going from a battle in Saving Ryan's Privates to a fight from the old Batman show -
But the Ewoks won, somehow they pulled off a great ambush. So my answer to the posed question is NO.
-----signature-----
Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe".
Han: "Hey remember, I won her fair and square."
Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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Darth_Hoser
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
3/5 1:20pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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skyysoblue posted:
As long as the cloud of the dark side of the force enveloped the battlefield, the rebels did not have a chance. Luke, by drawing the ire of the Emperor and Vader towards him (and also creating conflict within vader) was able to lift the cloud of the dark side of the force from the battle field.
This is called Battle Meditation. Basically Palpatine was influencing the entire battle in his favor, once he died the Imperials lost a mesure of stability and the rebels were able to take the advantage.
I dont think thats why the Empire lost though, The Rebels had so many "heroes" fighting on all 3 fronts, and the Empire had all but 2 or 3 "heroes" of their own, no chance.
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MasterLuke83
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/5 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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BigBoy29 posted:
Yeah ... it was campy fun.
If you watch AOTC battle, then watch ROTJ - it's like going from a battle in Saving Ryan's Privates to a fight from the old Batman show
It seems to be the pattern throughout the films. The beginning and end land battles are much campier than the other SW battles. Jar jar shouldve gotten killed in the land battle in TPM, but fumbled his way to victory as General -_-
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BigBoy29
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
3/5 11:36pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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I like how you said "fumbled his way to victory" ....
Somewhere else there's a thread about Star Wars overriding theme.
My assertion is that Star Wars rewards folks who do "something" -
The Jar-Jar thing and the Ewok who stole the bike - just like you phrased it -
one can't help but think Mr. Lucas really wanted this kinda thing to resonate - enthusiasm will win the day!
-----signature-----
Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe".
Han: "Hey remember, I won her fair and square."
Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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HemDazon90
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/6 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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TaunTaunHerder posted:
Should the Rebels have lost the Battle Of Endor?
Hmm.
I think that anytime your allies are intelligent teddy bears that have trouble seeing over a countertop, much less plausibly defeating a detachment of Stormtroopers and Biker Scouts, then yes, the Rebels should have lost, but, see, Uncle George was apparently fresh out of ideas and he also had to end the trilogy at some point.
If any of them Ewoks had tried to tie me to a pole like some deer, we would've had a problem.
If I was a smuggler with an eight-foot tall space Sasquatch who had my back, I'm not havin' some teddy bear
thing rollin' up on the set.
dont forget there was rebel commandoes there the ewocks and all those guys waere just holdin them off and its only towards the end where the ewocks start winning
-----signature-----
"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand. Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid the price for your lack of vision. Now, young Skywalker, you will die."
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michaeljamesmccabe
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
4/6 6:53pm
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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Alpha-Red posted:
Aside from the fact that it would make much more sense to have an Imperial victory, magically giving the Rebels an easy victory over a more powerful enemy just cheapens what happens in the Death Star throne room. Palpatine constantly uses the seemingly inevitable Rebel defeat to tap into Luke's anger and turn him to the dark side. But if the Rebels were to win anyway, then what point is there for Luke to even consider turning? It all becomes a psychological mind game rather than an actual temptation. Now if the Rebels were to lose in space and be forced to surrender, then it adds more to symbolism to when Luke finally throws down his lightsaber, that he would sooner accept defeat rather than give in to the dark side.
Furthermore, it means that the outcome of the lightsaber duel would actually have an effect on what's going on outside. Once Vader throws Palpatine down the reactor shaft, that leaves Luke in a position to order all Imperial forces to stand down. Or if that isn't convincing enough, Vader himself could give that order to Piett and Jerjerrod as his last act before dying.
The victory on Endor was EASY? Far from it. It actually shows mistakes on both sides, and ultimately gives much more weight to what happens in the throne room.
The rebels send a small group of commandos down to take out the shield generator. This is something they thought could be accomplished by a small group sneaking past the Empire's security screening. Meanwhile, Vader senses Luke and then I assume informs the Emperor. They send down reinforcements to deal with the VERY small group of rebels, and consider the problem solved.
Luke understood the significance of the Ewoks, and the role they would play in the battle, immediately. As the Ewoks were a completely unknown race of creatures that were advanced enough to cause (at the very least) a distraction during the destruction of the shield generator, they were the perfect allies. After establishing this alliance, Luke moved on to confronting his father.
Luke has complete faith that his friends on the Endor moon will destroy the generator. The Emperor is not aware of the Ewoks, and is over confident in the power of his legion. When Vader takes Luke to the DS2, Luke goes knowing that it will be destroyed. I think that he goes knowing that it is the only way to make his father resolve his conflict between good and evil.
The throne room scene is one of the most compelling in the entire saga. I feel that the Emperor misreads Luke from the start. He thinks that he can tap into his fear and aggression, like he did with his father, and turn him into a more powerful dark apprentice. But, he does not anticipate Luke's true intention of trying to turn Vader back to the light.
Luke wanted to save his father. He's there in the throne room to force the issue (no pun intended). He's making Anakin choose between his love of family, or his connection to the Dark Side and the Emperor. Turning to the Dark Side is never a temptation for Luke. When he first moves to strike down the Emperor, its more about forcing Vader to make the choice right then and there, than it is about giving in to his hatred.
Luke fights defensively for the most part. When he finally goes offensive, he does so just to disarm Vader. When he does that, he throws away his weapon and awaits his death. Whether it comes at the hands of the Emperor or the Death Star blowing up, makes no difference to him. Again, he is there to turn his father back to his true self. Only when Anakin returns, does Luke looks to save his father and himself.
The Death Star 2 needs to be destroyed just based on the fact that it's an all powerful weapon. Even if the Imperial forces would follow a "stand down" order from Vader (which I highly doubt), the weapon would still remain. The whole point of the Rebellion's attack, was to DESTROY the Death Star 2. They weren't even considering the idea of a surrender from the Empire, and they probably wouldn't have listened to it anyway.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
4/7 12:31am
Subject:
RE: Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?
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People underestimate the Ewoks. It's too bad they weren't more vicious in the films,( other than eating stormtroopers, and trying to eat Han and Chewie to try to appease their "golden god"..
-----signature-----
" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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