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Topic:
Princess Leia not a princess?
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
3/24 9:10am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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In 1977 Lucas says that Alderaan has seven planets and they all go to a senate, and Bail Organa is "president of the senate," whatever that is supposed to mean.
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
3/24 10:04am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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Maybe it is kinda like the Royal family in England.
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
3/24 11:31am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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AdamBertocci posted:
For what it's worth, the research is even simpler than anyone's making it out to be: Bail's wife is credited as "Queen of Alderaan" in ROTS, as I recall.
Rick McCallum loves you!
Thank you, I was just going to ask that  The name "Breha" would have been nice, too, though...
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Luke_SW
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
3/24 2:23pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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jedimasterbac posted:
Bail is not a king because he is not blood related to the royal family, but he is married to Queen Breha Organa. Because of that, he holds the title of Prince Consort while serving in the Galactic/Imperial Senate as the Senator of Alderaan. That's the exact same thing with the Queen of England, as her husband is not the King of England. When Prince Charles takes the throne, his wife Camilla will not be Queen of England because she is not a blood member of the royal family. Leia is Princess of Alderaan in the same manner that Harry and William are Princes of England.
so does this mean the Organa's kept the fact that Leia was adopted a secret and made everyone believe Leia was their birth daughter? because would an adopted child receive the same title as a birth child?
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
3/28 11:35pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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Bail Organa is a Royal in his own right. He's from the house of Organa and his wife is from the house of Antilles. And since the kings and queens of Naboo are elected, Leia can't get the princess title from Padme, since she was elected to be queen, so Leia's just the princess of Alderaan
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Organa
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Antilles
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alderaanian_Ascendancy_Contention
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Kevin_Solo
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
3/29 4:59pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
- Date Edited:
3/29 5:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Kevin_Solo
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As has been pointed out earlier, Leia's royal background is a mess.
It appears from the links given that Bail Organa was monarch of Alderaan, although he has the title of 'Viceroy' instead of 'King'. His wife, Breha Antilles, has the title of 'Queen', only because she is his wife. She is therefore not monarch in her own right, like Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom; her husband has that position.
The problem here is whether Leia, as their adopted daughter, has the right to succeed her father as monarch. It's not known if the laws of Alderaan permitted this. Even if they did, the novelisation of RotJ made it clear that while Leia knew about her adoption, including knowing her biological mother, this was not generally known. If this is the case, the adoption could possibly be illegal. Even if adopted children could succeed to the throne of Alderaan, Leia might not have this right, or the right to the title of 'Princess', if her adoption was not legally valid.
What has bothered me is that, assuming Leia had the right to succeed her father Bail as monarch of Alderaan on his death, whether as 'Queen' or 'Vicerene' (the female version of 'Viceroy'), why didn't she or others so proclaim her after Alderaan was destroyed?  It would have given a great propaganda boost to the Rebellion. 
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DarthIshtar
Title: Former CR
Scattergories Hostess
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/29 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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The Alderaanian ascendancy issue as described in Zahn's Dark Force Rising refers to the conflict between the Houses of Organa and Antilles over the right to rule Alderaan. The House Antilles technically won, but the Houses were united in marriage by Breha and Bail. In addition, Leia says clearly in that book that she was considered royalty. When they land on Honoghr, 3PO says that there is some confusion about her royal status among the Noghri who know who she is and she says rather curtly "The high court of Alderaan had a royal hierarchy." Finally, according to Obi-Wan in, I believe, the ROTJ novelization, it was never public knowledge that Leia was not Bail's biological daughter--she became a princess by "virtue of her lineage," which suggests that they had the adoption privately formalized and publicly declared her to be the heir of Bail and Breha Organa.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/29 6:16pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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_Sublime_Skywalker_ posted:
I wouldn't exactly say that Bail was a martyr, because he didn't know he was about to die. I'm sure he also didn't know that Leia was being interrogated with her planets existence on the line.
However, he was a great Rebellion leader, even in the PT he always fought for democracy and freedom.
I agree, I think Wookiepedia should rephrase the term martyr in this case. It stretches the term too far IMO. A martyr usually dies doing something "actively" for a cause. Just existing on a planet as it is blown up is "passive".
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Darthdias
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
4/1 7:10am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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As far as the movies go, I also seem to recall that Bail Organa was refered to as "your highness" by one of the alderanian officers in ROTS.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/3 1:03am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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CAPTAIN ANTILLES: Yes, Your Highness.
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/4 2:00pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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From the films, we don't know the precise claim Leia has to the title of "princess" or honorific "highness", but we do see this used by Rebels and Imperials alike, especially in ANH, but continuing as well in TESB. I can't recall if it comes up in ROTJ.
But it seems her title is uncontested, even after Alderaan is destroyed, and the Imperial Senate dissolved. Perhaps "Bail" is a title as well, like "Elector" in the Holy Roman Empire, and as his adopted daughter, she is a princess simply by virtue of belonging to a princely family.
Padme was Princess of Theed before her queenship and her term as senator. Dooku was a count, once he left the Jedi Order, and resumed his familial identity. These offices seem to be largely ceremonial, within a representative democracy - they are "Constitutional aristocrats".
Of course, a large part of this is simply to romanticize the setting with trappings of a fairy-tale society of Lords and Ladies, knights and, yes, princesses.
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
4/4 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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FirBholg posted:
From the films, we don't know the precise claim Leia has to the title of "princess" or honorific "highness", but we do see this used by Rebels and Imperials alike, especially in ANH, but continuing as well in TESB. I can't recall if it comes up in ROTJ.
3PO greets her with "Princess Leia" when she emerges from the Ewok hut in that hippie dress. IIRC.
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Kevin_Solo
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
4/8 6:47am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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I have a couple of more points to add to this interesting discussion:
1. A 'house law'?
Ish, I checked with Zahn's Dark Force Rising, and found this in Chapter 4, when Winter explained to Luke the 'Alderaan Ascendancy Contention':
'The question was whether the line of ascent to Viceroy should go to Bail Organa's father or one of the other family lines,' Winter continued. 'After the third voting deadlock they appealed to the Senate to mediate the issue. [Joruus] C'baoth was one of the delegation they sent, which took less than a month to decide that the Organas had the proper claim.'
This means that the throne of Alderaan was hereditary in the Organa family, from Bail's father on.
I checked my copy of the novelisation of RotJ, which confirmed my recollections. First, Ben told Luke in Chapter 3 that:
"Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage - no one knew she'd been adopted, of course."
Second, Luke asked Leia in Chapter 6 if she had any memories of her biological mother:
"Yes," she said, pausing to regain her composure. "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."
So Leia was aware, and presumably her family, of her adopted status, though it was not known to the general public.
These references raise a few questions. One, do adopted children have the right to succeed to the throne of Alderaan? Two, even if they do, could Leia succeed if her adoption as a member of the royal family was not made public? Three, assuming that Leia could succeed her father as monarch of Alderaan, why was she not so proclaimed upon his death, the succession presumably being automatic?
I have a possible answer to these questions. It is possible that Alderaan had a 'house law': a law governing a royal family or dynasty in the areas of succession to the throne; membership of the family; regency; and entitlement to dynastic rank, titles and styles.
In many European monarchies, such house laws sometimes were a separate part of the laws of the relevant country. Decisions could be made by the monarch according to the relevant house law without the need for parliamentary or legislative approval.
Some European monarchies still have such separate house laws. The Constitution of the Principality of Liechtenstein has this to say about its house law:
Article 31
The hereditary succession to the throne within the Princely House of Liechtenstein, the age of majority of the Reigning Prince and of the Hereditary Prince, and any applicable guardianship shall be laid down by the Princely House in the form of a Law on the Princely House.
What this means is that such a house law may not be amended by either the parliament or people of the principality, only by the reigning monarch.
Another monarchy still with such a house law is the Principality of Monaco. Of particular interest here is that, from 1882 till 2002, the house law of that country permitted adopted heirs to succeed to the throne. This is the relevant part, prior to the revision of 2002:
Article 2
The reigning Prince if he has no issue, and the Hereditary Prince if he is in the same case and is authorized by the reigning Prince, can adopt a child within the sovereign family or even outside of it. The conditions and formalities of adoption shall be determined by a sovereign ordinance. The adoptive child fully inherits the titles and prerogatives of the adopting Prince, and specifically the rights to the Crown. However, if the adopting Prince has a legitimate issue after the adoption, the adoptive children can be called to succeed only after the legitimate issue.(Emphasis mine)
The conditions for adoption mentioned in Article 2 were set forth by an ordinance of 31 October 1918, requiring that the adoptee be 18 years of age, that the adoption be made in the presence of the adopting Prince and the Reigning Prince, with their signatures, and that the adoption is valid from the date of signing. (Information found at http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/monaco-old.htm.)
My own suggestion about what happened regarding Leia is that, while her adoption was legitimate, and she was entitled to the title of 'Princess', she cannot succeed to the throne of Alderaan, her adoption not not having been made public; and there is an obvious public interest in knowing who the new heir is. This meant, therefore, that Leia was not proclaimed monarch of Alderaan after her father died when it was destroyed.
A very good story could be written about a remote cousin of Bail Organa or a member of the 'other family lines', an Alderaanian who was off planet at the time of the destruction, and who unexpectedly finds himself or herself proclaimed as monarch. (I've no doubt that this would happen if such a person existed, to raise up a potent symbol of resistance to the Empire.) This new monarch would be asking his or her remote cousin Princess Leia a lot of questions about how he or she should behave. Of course, this new monarch could prove to be an embarrassment to both Leia and the Rebellion. (I'm thinking of a situation like in the film King Ralph (1991)!)
2. Proper form of address to Leia:
In terms of the proper form of address to Leia as a princess of Alderaan, I checked to confirm my memory that C3PO addressed her as 'Your Royal Highness' after she was reunited with him and the others on Endor in RotJ, the scene mentioned by TwiLekJedi. That droid being a fussy protocol one,  it's fair to assume that this form of address was correct.
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JEDI-RISING
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/8 8:25am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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Padme was Princess of Theed before her Queenship? First i've heard of that.
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DarthIshtar
Title: Former CR
Scattergories Hostess
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/8 8:39am
Subject:
RE: Princess Leia not a princess?
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Yes, but that was a mayor post.
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