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Topic:
Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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jacktherack
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/29 9:24pm
Subject:
Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
- Date Edited:
3/29 10:05pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
General Kenobi
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me and my freind had an arguement, i said that i thought that obi-wan let vader kill him not only because he would turn into a force ghost but also that he would have not been able to beat vader. my friend said he would have been able to beat him. i have heard people say that he died to give luke a chance to escape. but don't you think that if he killed vader they could have still escaped? not only were luke leia han and chewie able to escape pretty easily, but with a jedi master that was able to kill vader i think they would have easily made an escape. also wouldn't the stormtroopers be afraid of obi-wan since they killed vader who they thought was invincible. or even like in the wizard of oz they were glad to have gotten rid of him.
also i don't think he would be more powerfull as a force ghost. he could do all the same things as he could as a force ghost if he was alive. i am interested to see what you fans have to say.
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ewoks rock jar jar sucks, check out my youtube account
first saw the star wars movies special edition in 1997 when i was 6.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/29 9:56pm
Subject:
RE: episode 4 obi's reason's for forfiting the duel.
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You and your friend arent going to be satisfied until you get something official, so heres what Wookiepedia says:
Obi-Wan allowed Luke and the rest of the crew to reach the Falcon. As their battle progressed, Kenobi responded to Vader's mockings with cryptic warnings.
"Your powers are weak, old man."
"You can't win Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
Upon seeing Luke, he sacrificed himself for Luke and the Falcon's crew to escape. Kenobi let down his guard and concentrated for a moment, vanishing to the spiritual plane; his body disappearing entirely just as Vader's lightsaber (instead of severing his body) passed through his empty robe. Obi-Wan became a force ghost, and was more powerful than ever.
Kenobi did not vanish entirely. In accordance with his prediction, he became a Force ghost that could guide and counsel the young Luke from afar.
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
3/29 10:04pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
- Date Edited:
3/29 10:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
General Kenobi
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Welcome to the CT Forum. 
I don't think we've had a recent thread on this, so we can discuss here.
For reference, though, a few old topics from our lovely Index:
"Escape is not his plan."
Vader thinks Obi-Wan has come to kill him, to finish the job he started on Mustafar. He is caught off-guard when Obi-Wan becomes one with the Force.
Why does Obi-Wan let Vader kill him in ANH?
I disagree that he could do the all same things in corporeal form. Speaking to Luke in the trench run being the biggie, but also appearing to Luke when he needed on Hoth and Dagobah.
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jacktherack
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/29 10:07pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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General Kenobi posted:
Welcome to the CT Forum.
I don't think we've had a recent thread on this, so we can discuss here.
For reference, though, a few old topics from our lovely Index:
Escape is not his plan."
Vader thinks Obi-Wan has come to kill him, to finish the job he started on Mustafar. He is caught off-guard when Obi-Wan becomes one with the Force.
Why does Obi-Wan let Vader kill him in ANH?
I disagree that he could do the all same things in corporeal form. Speaking to Luke in the trench run being the biggie, but also appearing to Luke when he needed on Hoth and Dagobah.
but don't you think he could do so much more if he was alive? and i want to know if obi-wan stood a chance against vader. i'm pretty sure he didn't even though vader was weaker in the suit. obi wan was really old. and if you look at his moves they are really horrible. that is by far the worst duel in the entire saga. almost boring. i would think obi wan could tell luke about yoda in person, and i would think that obi-wan just saying use the force shouldn't have helped that much.
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At last we reveal ourself to the jedi. At last we will have our revenge
ewoks rock jar jar sucks, check out my youtube account
first saw the star wars movies special edition in 1997 when i was 6.
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/29 10:14pm
Subject:
RE: episode 4 obi's reason's for forfiting the duel.
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I think Obi Wan did this because he knew he couldn't beat Vader, not anymore. He stretched out the duel and talked to him to give Luke and Han a clear get away. Also, I guess you could say he was testing Vader to see how far he was. Darth Vader says that Obi Wan should've never came back, kinda like a get out of the line of sith lord free card, Obi Wan warns him in death he will be stronger than in life, and Vader does the stupid thing and kills him anywaise.
It does make sense that IF Obi Wan did kill Vader, they could have a better chance of escaping, but keep in mind stormtroopers were starting to surround old Ben, and though if he could kill Vader, Stormtroopers would be no problem for him, he would still be outnumbered. Then if they did escape, he'd be hunted down ruthlessly by the Emporer, and that would further endanger Luke before he was ready to face him.
However, I believe Obi Wan was doomed when he faced Vader, but he knew he was and thats why he went alone. Darth Vader was too strong now and had learned and mastered his faults. Obi Wan was getting older, and was just not enough for Vader.
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'You don't know the Power of the Darkside!'-Darth Vader
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Darth Dark Helmet
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Dec '99
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Date Posted:
3/29 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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i'm pretty sure he didn't even though vader was weaker in the suit. obi wan was really old. and if you look at his moves they are really horrible.
But, look at the duel again and ask yourself this: When is Obi-Wan ever not in control of the duel? He's not. The whole time (at least on screen), he's in control of the pace and the action. He's fighting purely defensive, simply keeping Vader occupied. Until the very end, when Obi-Wan allows Vader to kill him, he never seems in any danger of being defeated. He knows that he could be more of a help to Luke in spirit form. And in his mind, that's all that matters. I don't think he cares too much about the rebellion and its fight against the Empire. His concern is Luke, his training and the defeat of the Sith. And the best way to do that, is the way he did it. So, he fought with Vader, controlling the fight, dictating how things went until the moment was Luke was about to escape and could witness his death, then allowed Vader to finish him.
He had he been really trying to defeat Vader, could he have? I think so. Its not a no brainer, but he did it once, he can do it again.
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
3/29 11:08pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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jacktherack posted:
but don't you think he could do so much more if he was alive? and i want to know if obi-wan stood a chance against vader. i'm pretty sure he didn't even though vader was weaker in the suit. obi wan was really old. and if you look at his moves they are really horrible. that is by far the worst duel in the entire saga. almost boring. i would think obi wan could tell luke about yoda in person, and i would think that obi-wan just saying use the force shouldn't have helped that much.
//taps SHIFT key 
I think you are missing the point. It's not about who can win a physical fight. Neither Obi-Wan nor Vader are near their peak fighting ability from twenty years ago. Obi-Wan is a step ahead of Vader. Vader thinks it's about finishing what was started on Mustafar. Obi-Wan knows going into the fight that his goal is not to physically defeat Vader (whether he thinks he can or not). It is to create a diversion, and ultimately to sacrifice himself. This is the lesson he and Yoda learned from Qui-Gon. In the ANH novelization, the dialog goes something like this: "If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Anakin was using the hatred and aggression of the dark side. If he loses, he dies. But when he sacrifices himself to save Luke, he is redeemed by turning back to the good side.
Also, do you think that Vader and Tarkin would have been as willing to let the Falcon escape knowing that Obi-Wan was on it?
There's more to a fight than the stunts and physical aspect of it. I think the ANH duel is more interesting than what we see in AOTC. It's not as wild as the Mustafar duel because Vader is physically crippled, and much more cautious with Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan is not fighting to win, but to distract, delay and position himself for his sacrifice.
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Onoto
Title: Host
Risk
Arena Top 100
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
3/30 10:39am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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jacktherack posted:
but don't you think he could do so much more if he was alive? and i want to know if obi-wan stood a chance against vader. i'm pretty sure he didn't even though vader was weaker in the suit. obi wan was really old. and if you look at his moves they are really horrible. that is by far the worst duel in the entire saga. almost boring.
It's actually probably the most realistic and believable of all the duels, in terms of the styles and moves. Real swordsmen don't flip around, and the light probing and short bursts were completely appropriate. Besides, the saber-clashing isn't the point of the scene so much as the dramatic tension created by the character's relationship.jacktherack posted:
i would think obi wan could tell luke about yoda in person, and i would think that obi-wan just saying use the force shouldn't have helped that much.
From a cinematic perspective, Obi-Wan had to die to inspire Luke, and you could make the argument that that was his in-universe reasoning, too.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/30 11:09am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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I posted a theory, apparently in the wrong thread. I thought that maybe Obi-Wan was subconsciously teaching Anakin a lesson - maybe without even realizing it. Anakin had always quested for power and Obi-Wan was showing him that as a master of evil the dark power he quested after would never be as great as what he could have attained as a Jedi (which Obi-Wan both says he'll be more powerful than Vader can imagine and also shows him).
Obi-Wan also kept his lightsaber ignited, limiting Vader's sin in a Jedi context (so he wouldn't kill an unarmed man) - some compassion in there somewhere too - also maybe on a subconscious level.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/30 11:31am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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Also, do you think that Vader and Tarkin would have been as willing to let the Falcon escape knowing that Obi-Wan was on it?
Actually yes. They had the tracking beacon placed on board BEFORE the duel. So that indicates to me that they had planned to let them all escape, so they could find the location of the rebel base.
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
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Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
3/30 11:37am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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But before that, Vader tells Tarkin: "Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone".
Vader definitely wasn't planning on letting Obi-Wan leave the Death Star. If he had tried to escape with the Falcon, I bet Vader would have been out in his TIE fighter, along with several squadrons, and not just the four sentry ships.
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Darth Dark Helmet
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Dec '99
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Date Posted:
3/30 11:56am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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General Kenobi posted:
But before that, Vader tells Tarkin: "Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone".
Vader definitely wasn't planning on letting Obi-Wan leave the Death Star. If he had tried to escape with the Falcon, I bet Vader would have been out in his TIE fighter, along with several squadrons, and not just the four sentry ships.
On the flip side of that though, I don't think Obi-Wan was planning on ever leaving the Death Star. He knew Vader was on board, and knew that Vader would be looking for him.
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"What would Hitler do?"
And then, you know, do the opposite.
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
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Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
3/30 12:09pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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Right. As I said above, Obi-Wan knew he was going to sacrifice himself for the others.
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DarthButt
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
3/30 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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General Kenobi posted:
Anakin was using the hatred and aggression of the dark side. If he loses, he dies. But when he sacrifices himself to save Luke, he is redeemed by turning back to the good side.
An interesting take on it, Scott. For the record, I think it's just as likely that Obi-Wan could have defeated Vader as it was that Vader defeated Obi-Wan. Do you think that Obi-Wan was truely being selfless in that he was sacrificing himself for Anakin's sake? That he could be seeing the future that Luke could potentially redeem him? I can see this. One of the last things Obi-Wan said to him was that he had failed him. Perhaps this was a way of undoing what Obi-Wan may had felt he had caused. But then, in ROTJ, Obi-Wan doesn't seem to think there is much hope for him.
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jacktherack
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/30 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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are you guys kidding? darth vader tried as hard as he could to get the falcon. there where rebels on it and, and girl that knew the death star plans.
plus obi-wan as a ghost didn't do anything he couldnt have done in his regular form. all he did was first tell luke to use the force. which he could have done, second he told luke to find yoda, when luke was dieing nontheless. and finally had a chat
with luke after after he found out vader was his father, and told him that he was righth in a certian point of view, which certianly didn't help him at all. imagine what he could have done with luke had he been alive.
also for the person that said vader did a stupid thing killing him, what was vader sopposed to do, just say ok obi-wan i'll let you go.
and i also forgot couldnt obi wan contact luke through the force even if he isn't a force ghost?
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At last we reveal ourself to the jedi. At last we will have our revenge
ewoks rock jar jar sucks, check out my youtube account
first saw the star wars movies special edition in 1997 when i was 6.
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Wester547
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
3/30 5:04pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan's reasons for forfeiting the duel
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Well, since Obi-Wan learned to project himself through the force, you could contest that through allowing Vader to win he won in a greater way. But in terms of force usage (even if not in terms of his physical portion) I feel he was much greater than he was in ROTS. Old Ben even had Vader in a spot of sorts and had him wheezing at the height of their duel, which is something Luke didn't arouse until ROTJ (with the ferocity we see later in his father). But I'd say that through doing what he did Ben made a much better victory reach fruition than through just trying to defeat Vader with a great physical profile, on reason of his "forfeiting".
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