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Topic:
Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/30 4:51am
Subject:
Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Only a Sith deals in absolutes - Kenobi to Vader.
Yoda: Do or do not.
There is no try.
Thoughts?
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
3/30 8:15am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Different context. Obi-Wan is responding to Anakin's ultimatum of "if you're not with me, then you're my enemy". (We don't need to get into who Lucas was comparing the Sith to in the real world. Leave that for PT discussion.  )
Yoda is talking about Luke's self-doubt, and his doubt about the nature of the Force.
"I, I don't believe it."
"That is why you fail."
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/30 10:53am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Yep, Yoda deals in a lot of absolutes with Luke, thats another example of why Obi-Wans line doesnt make a lot of sense. And Obi-Wans line is an absolute in itself, and not absolutely correct because Palps said a lot of things that werent absolute. 
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halibut
Title: FF Admin & UK RSA
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
3/30 11:20am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Only a Sith deals in absolutes is not the same as a sith only deals in absolutes
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/30 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
- Date Edited:
3/30 12:18pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
voodoopuuduu
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Absolutely.
I know its a throw away line that contributes nothing to the story, but I cant help feeling that Lucas specifically put it in just to tweak/annoy the fan base.
Any one else feel that way ?
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DarthButt
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
3/30 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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No.
Luke was not being open minded enough to allow the force to flow through him. He was stuck in his own view of the way things work under normal physics. Yoda was simply trying to show him a new way of thinking, and how not to think.
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
3/30 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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No Yoda is not being absolute, but everyone is trying to forcee the issue of being absolute onto Yoda and the Jedi when they try to catch them in oxymorons.
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jedimasterbac
Title: Fan Sites Manager
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
3/31 4:07pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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DarthButt posted:
Luke was not being open minded enough to allow the force to flow through him. He was stuck in his own view of the way things work under normal physics. Yoda was simply trying to show him a new way of thinking, and how not to think.
Very true. 
On the idea of the "absolutes" line, a lot of people say that Lucas just didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote that and he didn't realize he was writing an oxymoron. They then try to paint that as being one of the reasons he's an awful writer of dialogue. Lucas may not have intended it to be an oxymoron and he may have written it poorly in that context, but I think it shows a lot about Obi-Wan the character and I happen to disagree with the idea that it was a bad line. The whole idea of the transition between Episode III and Episode IV is that the Jedi realize that they were wrong in many regards and that the two main survivors, Yoda and Obi-Wan, need to learn the true way of the Force, mostly from Qui-Gon.
Even though they had nineteen years of study time under Qui-Gon, the Jedi didn't learn their lessons on absolutes until the end of ROTJ. Obi-Wan deals in another absolute, IMO, when he tells Luke that he basically either has to kill Vader or they lose. He leaves no room for a redemption. When Anakin is a ghost at the end and Obi-Wan is beaming with pride, to me that shows that he's learned his lesson on dealing in absolutes like that.
I think I just rambled and lost my point somewhere. If anyone finds it, please let me know.
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DARTH_BELO
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
3/31 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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I agree with this as well, I don't think Yoda was dealing in absolutes.
He was simply showing Luke what kind of mindset to have. To not doubt the power of the force, and realize that if he truly focuses his strength, he can do it. No person is ever going to tell you "okay, do this, but it's okay if you assume you cant."
Another example of this way of thinking is when Yoda tells him "Size matters not." Meaning all things in the Force can be thought of the same, regardless of it's level of intimidation. These two lines have the same kind of thought.
Darth Vader's "with me or against me" line is an absolute-it's not so much just a mindset as it is a way of viewing how things should be. An easy way to say it would be "It's my way or the highway..." That's not the same as "Believe in/don't doubt yourself and have confidence in your abilities."
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/31 8:05pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Lucas may not have intended it to be an oxymoron and he may have written it poorly in that context, but I think it shows a lot about Obi-Wan the character and I happen to disagree with the idea that it was a bad line.
Interestingly, the original line from the script was :
OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
So Lucas did tinker with the line afterwards, and it wasnt a mistake. However, bottom line, that statement is just plain FALSE. Beings other than Sith can deal in absolutes too, ie George "its my movie" Lucas.
So Lucas knowingly and after consideration, either put in a very poor choice of words, or he just did it to tweak the fanbase.
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
4/1 11:15pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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If Yoda was to deal in absolutes, when Luke says he cannot kill his father, Yoda would see Luke as a threat then, and kill him.
The whole "Do or do not, there is no try" is all about having faith in the force, because Luke will never be able to progress if he doesn't believe in his powers. If he only trys, theres room to fail. However, if he does... he does.
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UnexpectedRewinds
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/2 2:31am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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I think what lucas means about Anakin is that he views things in black and white, either his way or no one's way; He doesn't view in between. Do or Do not is somewhat of an idea about believing, and believing in yourself to accomplish something that is out of your nature like the force and believing in it. It's very Daoist in that people and/or luke cannot be in doubt his whole life, he cannot live in limbo. People have to make choices, and yoda being a wise man is trying to lead him into the right path, a path that is scary but truly fulfilling because like Qui Gon says in one of the tone poems, "I will be a hard life, one without remorse, one without regret, a path will be placed before you, the choice is yours alone, do what you think you cannot do, and you will find out who you are." It's being able to accept the challenge, believing in the force, oneself, entering a realm that is gray(That's why Yoda tells us that it's a difficult time for Luke because he will be tempted by the dark side; the gray can get us to have temptation, but it is all about "Control, control, you must learn control")Life is Gray," accept it Yoda is saying, move on your journey against the cloudy gray and make sure you stay balanced, but you have to do it in order to truly understand it, but do it in a reasonable manner)
I think what Lucas means about Sith's and Absolutes are where people are brainwashed into an ideology in which they can only think in terms of black and white. Again, this is hard to explain sometimes because these are huge questions and huge human conditions.
It comes down to people who live on fear, anger, aggression who isolate themselves and people who live on compassion, love, peace and understand the nature of what it takes to be a good person. Was this an absolute?
Are there absolutes in life?
It is confusing why he said only sith's deal in absolutes, but I think we know what he means about that if we truly look down into ourselves, the characters and what they do. Well, peace out.
P.S. Sorry if this turned into a moral and ethical discussion, but hey, this is the territory.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/2 8:18am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Interesting that the whole Jedi Philosophy is based on absolutes.
Yoda treated Vader like Vader treated Kenobi, only he was more absolute.
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/4 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
- Date Edited:
4/4 1:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
FirBholg
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Well, first off, let's realize that Obi-Wan was the one speaking to Vader when he says "Only Sith deal in absolutes." And that is kind of an absolute statement, itself. If we don't read this as hypocrisy (and I do not think we ought to), then that makes it a paradox, a koan intended to shock Anakin out of certitude. It fails.
Yoda's statement, "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'," is given in a different situation, to describe to Luke a mental stance appropriate for allowing himself to let go of conscious disbelief, or reservations. This also fails, at the time.
To understand Obi-Wan's meaning, one must consider the situation and contex. He says what he does in reply to Vader's saying, "If you are not with me, you are my enemy." Vader is leaving no grey area, no room for compromise, in his thinking. He is unable to consider that a different point of view might also be equally true.
"You are going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon your point of view," Obi-Wan tells Luke. This is precisely the same teaching that Qui-Gon tried to give to Anakin, admonishing him, "Be mindful; Your focus determines your reality."
This is also they key to Yoda's instruction: "Do, or do not." It is about choosing that focus which aligns reality with success. The attempt should be made in expectation of success.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/4 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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And what about Yoda's literal absolutes?
It was clear that he was thinking in black and white regarding the Sith when he instructed Kenobi to kill Vader.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/4 3:08pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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To understand Obi-Wan's meaning, one must consider the situation and contex. He says what he does in reply to Vader's saying, "If you are not with me, you are my enemy." Vader is leaving no grey area, no room for compromise, in his thinking. He is unable to consider that a different point of view might also be equally true.
Considering the situation, Obi-Wan should have said something different, something like "No Anakin, Im your friend", instead of a reply that would anger Anakin.
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