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Topic:
Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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SLR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
4/10 7:42pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Baks posted:
I have to say Obi Wan did a pretty crappy job of trying to persuade Anakin back to the light side in ROTS, imo he doesn't try hard enough. Unlike Padme who died with her belief that there was still good in Anakin and Luke who almost dies in the attempt in ROTJ trying to get Anakin back to the light side.
I don't think that Obi Wan deep down is truly never convinced that Anakin can ever redeem himself. Hence why he says than "You are lost" to Anakin ROTS and also after when Luke says that he can't kill Vader in ROTJ, Obi Wan says "Then the Emperor has truly won."
Not to mention all the times that he and Yoda have lied to Luke about the whole Anakin/vader thing.
I don't think he did a crappy job trying to convert Anakin. He didn't make any attempt to do so. This is another example of the PT not matching up with the CT.
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***"Sir Tampon" of the Knights of The 3SA Sarcasm Table*** Philadelphia Phillies 2007 and 2008 NL East Champions  Fight on USC  Fly Eagles fly, on the road to victory Rest in Peace Snowball
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skgai1
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
4/10 8:16pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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SLR posted:
I don't think he did a crappy job trying to convert Anakin. He didn't make any attempt to do so. This is another example of the PT not matching up with the CT.
Of course he didn't make any attempt to do so. He was angry. The Jedi learned from their mistakes in the CT, which is why they seem so all-knowing in those films. In these films, the dark side has clouded the minds and they're not thinking correctly. That was one of the points of the movie. You can't fault that film for doing that unless you think it was poorly done. But poorly done or not, that's the story. The Jedi screwed up and then they fixed their mistakes 20 years later. If you don't like that story fine, but don't keep saying it was a bad job by Obi-Wan. That's how his character reacted, for better or worse.
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SLR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
4/10 8:37pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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That doesn't explain Vader's response to Luke in ROTJ about Vader's redemption, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the dark side." Where is the basis for this comment if Obi-Wan never attempted to try and convert or redeem Vader.
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***"Sir Tampon" of the Knights of The 3SA Sarcasm Table*** Philadelphia Phillies 2007 and 2008 NL East Champions Fight on USC Fly Eagles fly, on the road to victory Rest in Peace Snowball
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/10 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Some of the ROTS dialogue implies that Obi-Wan still thinks it's possible Anakin might back down. That's really all we have to work with.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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ScruffyScoundrelX
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/11 8:58am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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I wish I joined this discussion when everybody was here. It always bothered me that Lucas wrote Obi-Wan to say "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." I never got on the anti-JarJar or anti-JakeLloyd bandwagons because, unlike many-many fans, I understood their places in the SW Universe. JarJar is just child-oriented comic relief. We didn't mind C-3PO being that in the OT* (maybe b/c most of us were young kids when we first saw it), but cannot get past it in the PT**. As for Anakin, he had to be a kid at sometime. Okay, I had to get that off my chest (because this is my very first post or blog of any kind). I realize I digress (plus it's so nine-years-ago to bring that junk up anyway).
Back to the matter at hand. Lucas must be surrounded by a bunch of 'yes men', too afraid to correct him because as soon as I saw ROTS (5/19/05@12:01am) and heard Obi-Wan say that short-sighted line, I immediately remembered Yoda saying to Luke, "Do or do not, there is no try." Because Lucas (or those working for him) did not have the foresight (or the courage to speak up) and notice this inconsistany, Obi-Wan (a most awesome SW character) has to be the scapegoat on this. The only way to RetCon*** this is to say Obi-Wan was wrong. Besides, as some have stated on this board, Yoda says the Jedi of the PT era were clouded by arrogance anyway.
Speaking of RetCons, keep in mind ROTS is one big RetCon. Heck, all three PT movies are one giant RetCon all from Old Ben stating he served with Luke's father during something called the Clone Wars. Unlike the old "Planet of the Apes" movies, there is no political undertone. There is no need to get overly philosophical and policital about the PT movies. It's just one big RetCon ... no political or philosophical agenda, just one huge RetCon.
*OT = Original Trilogy
**PT = Prequel Trilogy
***RetCon = Retrofitted for Continuity.
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SLR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
4/11 4:56pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Some of the ROTS dialogue implies that Obi-Wan still thinks it's possible Anakin might back down. That's really all we have to work with.
But Vader isn't privy to Obi-Wan's thoughts. Why did Vader think that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did? There were no express manifestation of Obi-Wan expressing this view to Vader or attempting to so turn Vader to give a basis for this statement.
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***"Sir Tampon" of the Knights of The 3SA Sarcasm Table*** Philadelphia Phillies 2007 and 2008 NL East Champions Fight on USC Fly Eagles fly, on the road to victory Rest in Peace Snowball
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/11 8:27pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Anakin doesn't need to be privy to Obi-Wan's thoughts. Obi-Wan says "it's over" as though Anakin should accept it.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/12 4:30am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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SLR posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Some of the ROTS dialogue implies that Obi-Wan still thinks it's possible Anakin might back down. That's really all we have to work with.
But Vader isn't privy to Obi-Wan's thoughts. Why did Vader think that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did? There were no express manifestation of Obi-Wan expressing this view to Vader or attempting to so turn Vader to give a basis for this statement.
Vader was probably referring to Mustar when Obi-Wan began by trying to get Anakin to see reason. Admittedly Obi-Wan did a very poor job at trying to redeem his 'brother' - it seemed more like he was trying to redeem Dooku or some acquaintance rather than Anakin who he'd known all his life and he gave up way too quick as well in light of that. But Vader of the OT had to come about, so Obi-Wan had to get the short shrift on reality a little bit.
But I do think that Obi-Wan's comment and action were ironic..."only the Sith deal in absolutes" he says, then he immediately deals in absolutes when he draws his lightsaber having determined that Anakin is absolutely a Sith. 
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/25 9:26am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Yoda is trying to motivate Luke to use the Force wisely, but I think that it was a good question.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/25 11:45am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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SLR posted:
Why did Vader think that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did?
Because Padme said: "He wants to help you."
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/27 7:40am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
- Date Edited:
5/27 7:50am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
PMT99
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SLR posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Some of the ROTS dialogue implies that Obi-Wan still thinks it's possible Anakin might back down. That's really all we have to work with.
But Vader isn't privy to Obi-Wan's thoughts. Why did Vader think that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did? There were no express manifestation of Obi-Wan expressing this view to Vader or attempting to so turn Vader to give a basis for this statement.
Maybe Vader is just using Obi-wan's name to hide the fact that it was really Padme, Luke's mom who once thought as he did. Vader is too ashamed to admit that to Luke because it reminded him of the day he choked her to death and that he knew that Luke would hate him completely if he found out. If Obi-wan really believed as Luke did that Vader would give up the Dark Side, than Vader would not be in that black armored bio-suit nor would he continue obeying the Emperor.
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/27 5:31pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Personally I think Yoda's comment was intended to be about focus and eliminating self doubt, rather than a literal statement. In a number of other instances, though, the Jedi are hypocrites.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/28 9:36am
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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All Yoda is saying to Luke is "Either you lift up the ship or don't do it at all".
That sounds like a literal statement to me.
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
5/28 12:12pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Reminds me of "trying to sit down", as in hovering in a half/half position - your legs will hurt in no time; much unlike if you just sat down
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We do what we must
Because we can
For the good of all of us
Except the ones who are dead
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/28 1:19pm
Subject:
RE: Yoda dealing in absolutes?!
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Only a complete idiot would think that people never try to do things and fail. Yoda had failed to destroy Sidious despite his best intentions. He's talking about mindset. Don't go into something at all if you have doubts about whether you'll succeed. It'll only increase your chance of failure. If you're going to attempt something, set the doubt aside.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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