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Topic:
Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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darkchrono
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/3 6:25pm
Subject:
Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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It is obvious to see that Darth Vader is alot more mellow in 'Jedi' than he was in the first two classic trilogy films.
Storyline wise this is because he was struggling with his duties to the darkside and the love he felt for his son.
But do you think it was always intended for Vader to be alot more mellow in Ep. 6 because of this (or were his character traits re-written for the movie).
I have read and seen on documentaries that Lucas was not completely sold on the idea of making Vader Luke's father until well into production of ESB.
So is it possible that the much more evil acting Vader of ANH and ESB was not the same character as Vader of ROTJ (and his character was re-written for ROTJ after Lucas did decide to make him their father). Or would we have seen the same Vader character traits in ROTJ if Lucas had decided against making him Luke's father?
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/3 6:31pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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No, I don't believe we would have seen the same Vader had Lucas not decided to make him Luke's father. The character we currently see in ROTJ is Anakin trying to break free.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
4/3 6:31pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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You're right, its really not the same. Even though Lucas had decided to make Vader the father as far back as 1978, he was still largely in the role of the villain--I mean you can even see this in ESB. My belief is that the plan was always to make Vader more of a three-dimensional personality in film three, because it kind of follows in the storyline where Luke and Vader are facing each other again as equals and as family members. But you can even see in the early drafts of ROTJ--in the first rough draft, Vader is basically just a more developed version of ESB-Vader. He's given more character and depth, but he still goes around strangeling people to death, and he isn't in love with his son, he just wants him to join him and bring down the Emperor. But then with each draft he became more and more sympathetic and when Lawrence Kasdan came onboard he became more "mellow", as you say, and then Luke starts believing there is good in Vader and Vader makes a conscious choice to save Luke and redeem himself (this does not really occur in Lucas' early drafts).
So, I don't think the version of Vader in ROTJ was pre-meditated, it kind of evolved in an organic way as the script was written.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/3 7:11pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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That makes sense. The beauty of Star wars was totally the twist at the end with Vader returning to Anakin and redeemed by Luke and all of that. But I love Vader (the character) and so I wouldn't have minded his being even more evil in ROTJ and taking us on a wild wild through the adventures of a Dark Lord of the Sith using the Force (TONS) to do evil. We could have had a lot of really cool force use scenes. But anyway, I am happy with it the way it is also, that was also a wicked ending and unexpected when I first saw it - I flipped. It also made ROTS palatable.
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darkchrono
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/3 7:32pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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It would have been interesting how Darth Vader's character would have been written in the first two films had Lucas been 100% sold on making him Luke's father all along.
It seems that Vader in the first two films was written in a way in which it could have gone in either direction (making him the father or not the father).
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/3 8:23pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
- Date Edited:
4/3 8:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
voodoopuuduu
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So, I don't think the version of Vader in ROTJ was pre-meditated, it kind of evolved in an organic way as the script was written.
Actually you can say all the films evolved in an organic way as the script was written, and even later in the process. Lucas constantly changes his mind, and constantly adds stuff.
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/4 4:07pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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Another factor to consider is that by toning down Vader compared to his ESB persona is that he is sharing screen-time with the Emperor - who needs to come across as that much more "unforgiving" and frightening.
Also, the shape of the plot allows him less scope for underling-throttling, but it is plain from his subordinates' reactions to him that they still fear the possibility of incurring his displeasure.
I do not think the character was re-written, but I do think it is being shaded with more subtlety in ROTJ in order to allow the ambiguities of character to emerge and, with the climactic decision of the film, to blossom into believable change.
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/4 9:55pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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I don't think that Vader was "mellow" in RotJ. He's still a the fearsome Sith Lord, but perhaps you see from him that he views his Sithdom as a curse, trapped, and unable let go of his hate. If anything, this change is brought about by Luke in that he sees his former self, the once great Jedi hero named Anakin Skywalker. I think Vader's still Vader in RotJ, but will some chinks in the armor.
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Darthdias
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
4/5 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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I think Vader is more mellow in ROTJ, but he was still evil until the end. Just like Anakin was teetering very close to the dark side throughout ROTS but remains basickly good until the death of Mace.
Although he might be exagarating in the presence of the Emperor, this speech reaks of evil:
"Your thought's betray you, your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister! So you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhasp she will" 
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
4/5 9:46am
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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He had changed between TESB and ROTJ, but he changed much more between ANH and TESB.
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Darthdias
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
4/5 9:53am
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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I agree, but I look at it in a different way. The change between ESB and ROTJ feels like natural character progression or devolopment. The change between ANH and ESB feels more like character re-invention, or re-definition. The concept of who Vader The Person was underwent a massive change between those movies, while Vader in ROTJ still feels like the same guy from ESB, just more conflicted.
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darkchrono
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/6 12:01am
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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Darthdias posted:
I agree, but I look at it in a different way. The change between ESB and ROTJ feels like natural character progression or devolopment. The change between ANH and ESB feels more like character re-invention, or re-definition. The concept of who Vader The Person was underwent a massive change between those movies, while Vader in ROTJ still feels like the same guy from ESB, just more conflicted.
I have to disagree here. In ANH Vader was not the head guy as he was still taking orders from somebody else on the ship. But in Empire he was the man in charge (at least to everybody else aside from the Emperor). He was just throwing his power around a little bit more in Empire because he was the main man in charge.
You can clearly see that the only thing keeping him from going on a killing rampage in ANH was his supperior officer.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/6 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
- Date Edited:
4/6 1:14pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Not only did the character change but the way we looked at him changed from ESB to ROTJ thanks to the possibility he was Luke's father.
We were left wondering if it was possible or could it be true.
In Star Wars he was the pure villain. Some people even thought he was a robot underneath.
Post-ESB it was possible he was Luke's father.
That softened his hard edges just by implication.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
4/6 4:34pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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The poster who said the scene where Vader finally turns on Palpatine was great-I totally agree. ROTJ wouldn't be the movie it is if it weren't for that scene; it's the only scene in the whole saga I cheer at. Rotten old ******* finally got it 
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YYZ-2112
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/6 5:45pm
Subject:
RE: Was Vader's character rewritten for ROTJ
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I don't think Vader's role was rewritten for ROTJ.
Vader's character in ROTJ is a direct result of Luke's choices in TESB. In fact Vader behaves in the manner of ROTJ at the end of TESB when he's talking to Luke across space. Luke made the choice to kill himself rather than join Vader in the darkside. This to Vader meant that ultimately Luke would have to die since he would not turn. But since there was still good in Vader, he knew he wouldn't be able to kill Luke. Luke even points out to him that he's conflicted and the way Vader holds back against Luke is evidence as well.
"It is too late for me son."
Vader is telling Luke that he cannot be turned back and so therefore must be killed if Luke is to survive. And since Luke would end up turning to the darkside by seeking to kill his own father, his concern is that the Emperor would grant him a place. It's a tragic situation in which Anakin knows it's the end for him but maybe Luke can take his place. Notice that when Luke goes on the offensive, defeating Vader, Vader is fighting defensively, like a Jedi would fight. But when Luke spares Vader, he's forced to save his son from the wrath of the Emperor.
Vader in ROTJ is a pre-meditated result of his failure to get Luke to join him against the Emperor.
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