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Topic:
Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Alpha-Red
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/17 5:16pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Well I mean my point was that, like immolated_one said, ESB as a standalone movie doesn't work nearly as well as when linked to ANH. I mean that's kind of a "duh" thing as pretty much the whole world watched them in that sequence, but imagine if you went into the theatre and had no idea who Luke, Han or Darth Vader were. The reason we like ESB is because it takes the characters and universe we knew and did something really cool with it, not because it had some truly significant theme to it like ANH's man-versus-machine. Yes, there's a few philosophical points outlined by Yoda's lessons to Luke, but that doesn't really play out to anything until ROTJ.
I mean it's not like I want ESB to have that greater undertone to it, after all Homer's Odyssey was written (or narrated?) strictly for entertainment purposes and it's still held in pretty high regard today.
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 6:46pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Understood. But for myself, Empire can only exist as a standalone film, as the enchanting original is tonally incongruent, and Return of the Jedi far too mediocre to be considered a proper follow-up. Whenever I watch Kershner’s film, I divest myself of the bookend material, and take in the middle chapter as if it were the first and last Star Wars movie made—a movie about two spirit men vying for the soul of a budding messiah.
The closest analogue I can come up with would be On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, a superlative Bond film that never quite fit in with its undemanding siblings.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/17 11:13pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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I think License to Kill and the recent Casino Royale are very much like OHMSS. LtK less so, but in CR Bond definitely fell in love, for I think the first time since OHMSS.
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/18 1:45pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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drg4 posted:
Understood. But for myself, Empire can only exist as a standalone film, as the enchanting original is tonally incongruent, and Return of the Jedi far too mediocre to be considered a proper follow-up.
But see I don't believe it to be mediocre. In fact, I believe it is strongly tied to "TESB" and even to the prequels. Luke's "failure in the cave" isn't fully understood until you watch "ROTJ": where we see Luke walk into a dangerous situation unarmed not once but three times. Luke has learned from "TESB" and we never get to see that until "ROTJ". Lucas is showing that Jedi are not warriors but are truly nogotiators of peace and should only use force after all other avenues have been taken. There is no fat in "ROTJ" whatsoever. Every sequence in "ROTJ" has purpose; however, if you don't mind, please indulge me as to why "ROTJ" is mediocre?
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
5/18 1:53pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Just because movies integrate themselves thematically and storwis with their predecessors does not make it a good movie. Most people call films "mediocre" when they feel the drama or acting or writing is lacking, which, and I can't speak for anyone else here, is why I myself find it mediocre and why a great number of other people do. But even plotwise its a complete copout (Leias the sister! Oh and theres another death star! and we go back to Tatooine!) and thematically its pretty lazy as well (so now Luke wants to save his father? When did that happen? Offscreen it seems. And apparently he's conveniently gotten over his crush on Leia). Etc. Not to stop anyone from enjoying the film, its an entertaining movie, but it had a lot of responsibility to take on from Empire and it doesn't do so flawlessly.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/18 5:03pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
- Date Edited:
5/18 5:10pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
the_immolated_one
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zombie posted:
Just because movies integrate themselves thematically and storwis with their predecessors does not make it a good movie. Most people call films "mediocre" when they feel the drama or acting or writing is lacking, which, and I can't speak for anyone else here, is why I myself find it mediocre and why a great number of other people do. But even plotwise its a complete copout (Leias the sister! Oh and theres another death star! and we go back to Tatooine!) and thematically its pretty lazy as well (so now Luke wants to save his father? When did that happen? Offscreen it seems. And apparently he's conveniently gotten over his crush on Leia). Etc. Not to stop anyone from enjoying the film, its an entertaining movie, but it had a lot of responsibility to take on from Empire and it doesn't do so flawlessly.
Sorry but I don't see them as movies. I see them as one big movie because that's exactly what they are and were always meant to be. Whether or not you want to believe that is an entirely different issue. All the issues that Judith Martin had with "TESB" is because she's viewing it as a single movie. None of the episodes are stand alone movies no matter how many "Secret History of Star Wars" books you write, zombie.
drg 4 simply wants to view "TESB" as a stand alone movie and doesn't want to view "ROTJ" as a continuation of "TESB" just because of what he/she sees as mediocrity, and I simply wanted to show that "ROTJ" is merely an extention of "TESB" because Luke's issues in "TESB" are resolved in "ROTJ". I just asked drg 4 for examples of mediocrity for the same reasons you ask fans for their views on this and that.
Your point about why you and others don't like "ROTJ" is irrelevant to my opinion about "ROTJ" because popular opinion is not fact. It's just popular opinion.
I don't mind Leia being the sister because it ties directly into various aspects of "TESB" and indirectly to aspects of "ANH". It really doesn't matter to me what you and Gary Kurtz have to say about the issue. Why wouldn't Luke get over his crush on Leia once he finds out she his sister? Was he supposed to keep pursuing her romantically? The truth is he never did pursue her romantically in either "ANH" or "TESB". She kissed him twice: Once for luck and once to mess with Han's head. I mean did we really need a scene where Luke sits down and cries that he'll never be able to be with Leia in public? The truth is that we don't even see the cruch that Luke has on Leia in "TESB", so if it wasn't that important in "TESB" why would it be important enough in "ROTJ" to warrant a resolve?
In regards to Luke wanting to save his father: So what if it happens off screen? I suggest you review Chapter 14, 15, 16 and 27 of your "ROTJ" DVD. You can even use the unaltered version.  After reviewing these chapters I hardly see how it is lazy writing. Can't the audience simply see that Luke has issues with killing his father? Is that that big of stretch. Do we really need to be spoon fed that information?
Going back Tatooine. Well that's where Jabba the Hutt was located. Wasn't he? And wasn't that who wanted Solo? Is it that much of stretch that the movie go back to Tatooine since that's where Jabba was?
Why is another Death Star so bad for a sequel? Would it had been better if the Imperial space station was a polyhedron instead of a sphere? Honestly what did you want them to do? The budget was limited because Lucas didn't want to risk the money and didn't want to go to a studio for the money, so an epic of futuristic city in the middle of a war was out of the question and even if they could have pulled it off it still would have looked like crap.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
5/18 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Hey you asked, I'm just saying that why I and a lot of people find it mediocre, or at least not as good as it could be.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/18 8:19pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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zombie posted:
Hey you asked, I'm just saying that why I and a lot of people find it mediocre, or at least not as good as it could be.
I know.
But what would make it better?
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/18 10:11pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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the_immolated_one posted:
But see I don't believe it to be mediocre.
You're certainly not alone. Near as I can tell, at least 75% of SW fans find ROTJ a satisfying windup. And that's fine. I just think it's a bad movie, to such a degree that I can't consider it a sequel to Empire.
the_immolated_one posted:
however, if you don't mind, please indulge me as to why "ROTJ" is mediocre?
I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time eviscerating this film, so I’ll just echo Kershner's assessment after having read the scaled-down treatment: I didn't believe any of it.
I didn’t believe Luke’s journey. Seems to me that a boy who discovers that the butcher of the galaxy is his father would have more psychological baggage (yes, even after a year). I think it’d of been compelling to watch Luke work through his pain, flirting with the Dark Side, only gradually proceeding into the sphere of grace, rather than entering the film as an insufferable, stoic druid already intent on saving his mass-murdering poppa. I’d of preferred that he ask hard questions such as “Should I redeem him?” before actually pursuing the endeavor. Would’ve made him human.
I didn’t believe Leia’s journey. She had a long, twisted history with Darth Vader—-he tortured her, he made her a witness to Alderaan’s destruction, he entombed her first love—-and thus had as great a stake in that family conflict as her brother. (I can only imagine what James Cameron would’ve done with this dynamic.) What role does Leia Organa Skywalker play? How does she leave the series? Why, as a sex slave and teddy bear correspondent, of course!
I didn’t believe Vader’s journey. Much too passive, much too pitiable. His was the most hollow, shamelessly sentimental redemption I’ve seen committed to celluloid. A man with that much blood on his hands required more than a deathbed conversion; he needed to play an active role in his own salvation, by lamenting his crimes against humanity/family and launching a campaign to destroy Palpatine’s regime. In essence, he should’ve been cast as a penitent, and not a slave. (Which is where the Empire conclusion seemed to be taking us.)
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/19 10:43am
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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^^^
I just like hearing people's interpretations of Star Wars.
So thank you very much for taking the time to reply.
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Icebreaker
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/19 3:21pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Those were interesting reviews. It's interesting to see how the film was originally perceived before it became the pillar of the Star Wars saga. I wonder when it really started catching on that TESB might be the best of the original trilogy...
-matthew
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/19 6:48pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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For myself, I began to get the sense that ESB was superior to its brethren some time in the early 1990s. After many, many viewings of all three films throughout the 80s, one day I was watching the Yoda-explains-the-Force scene on Dagobah, when it struck me that here was a masterpiece of action-adventure/mythopoeic filmmaking. The next several times I watched the other two movies, I kept the model of ESB in my mind -- its lush cinematography, its note-perfect performances, its sense of reality -- and found that the others truly did compare less favorably on all points of craftsmanship, insight into human nature and emotional impact. When the SEs were released in '97, I learned that many fans felt the same way as I did. So, to answer the above question, I believe it was sometime in the 90s when ESB gradually emerged in our collective minds as the best of the bunch.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/19 9:08pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Vortigern99 posted:
I believe it was sometime in the 90s when ESB gradually emerged in our collective minds as the best of the bunch.
Probably when Jamie Kennedy said it was one of the rare sequels to surpass the original in Scream 2. 
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/19 10:44pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Icebreaker posted:
Those were interesting reviews. It's interesting to see how the film was originally perceived before it became the pillar of the Star Wars saga. I wonder when it really started catching on that TESB might be the best of the original trilogy...
-matthew
Not sure, but this appraisal should have been going strong once the complete trilogy became available on home video. Empire makes for a mighty jarring experience when sandwiched between two fantasies as tonally similar and harmless as ANH and ROTJ. It’s a curio, shorn of all the Flash Gordon razzle-dazzle and serial trappings we expect from the series. It leaves the same impression that the Night on Bald Mountain/Ave Maria finale left in Fantasia. “Hey, that was sort of tasteful. I’m feeling goosebumps, here!”
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BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/19 11:13pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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I think I spent my childhood defending Empire on the playground ("it's boring!"). I now spend my adulthood defending Jedi. It's good work if you can get it.
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