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Topic:
Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
5/19 11:33pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Empire started getting re-appraised in the early-mid 90's. I chalk this up to four factors:
-For non-fans, you know just normal movie fans, it had been significant time to take a second look at the film, whereas initially it was pretty divided in its reviews, but now it was disassociated from hype, expectation, and peoeple were prepared for its style and place as a middle chapter.
-At the same time, the trilogy itself had begun to be cemented as a cinema classic, and with this not only was Empire given a second look but it began to be seen as the most adult relative to its predecessor and successor, so it became the favorite of older fans.
-the kids who were ten years old in 1980 and thought Jedi was awesome but found Empire lacking had grown up and discovered all the things about Empire that had gone over their heads a decade earlier. At this same time they similarly discovered all the things their ten year old brains had thought was awesome about Jedi was not nearly as good as it seemed back then. By the middle of the 90's these people were then in control of the media, which is why in the mid-late 90's all the magazine and movie lists suddenly started saying Empire is equal or better than Star Wars. Jedi never was included in any of these lists. In fact, by the end of the decade we started seeing things like that famous "50 Reasons why Return of the Jedi Sucks".
-fans could see the trilogy with perspective, and Empire is the most sophisticated and deep of the three, plus it was more consistent with modern tastes for "serious" sci-fi films.
Even though Star Wars was still the more popular film overall, by the mid-90's Empire had become a cult classic of sorts, if you can imagine such a mainstream blockbuster gaining such a status. For fans and film buffs it was better constructed than Star Wars, was more adult and had more subtelties. Star Wars has since bounced back in the last few years due to its status as a cinema classic, whereas in the 90's many movies fans considered Empire the more important films, but I think most still consider Empire better made.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/20 7:14am
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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I'd say that's a fair appraisal of ESB's slow rise in status. Though as one of those 10-year-olds in 1980, I must say I, for one, always loved ESB over ROTJ; even at 13 I found ROTJ contrived and unrealistic, and only saw it twice in theaters. (ROTJ has grown on me, however! It's nowehere near as good as the other two films, but it's still better than almost any other sci-fi/fantasy film of the 80s -- which is saying alot!)
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/20 10:27am
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
- Date Edited:
5/20 10:27am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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zombie posted:
-the kids who were ten years old in 1980 and thought Jedi was awesome but found Empire lacking
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/20 11:18am
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Judith Martin's review reminded me of the numerous reviews for the PT. Which goes to show that it's better to form your own opinion than to rely on a critic.
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/20 12:48pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Vortigern99 posted:
(ROTJ has grown on me, however! It's nowehere near as good as the other two films, but it's still better than almost any other sci-fi/fantasy film of the 80s -- which is saying alot!)
There were a number of turgid sword n’ sorcery flicks released in the 80’s, but I thought The Dark Crystal, The Secret of NIMH, Legend (Director’s Cut) and even Willow were superior films. There was a beguiling purity to the storytelling.
DRush76 posted:
Judith Martin's review reminded me of the numerous reviews for the PT. Which goes to show that it's better to form your own opinion than to rely on a critic.
Absolutely. And when you find yourself enjoying a movie, embrace it—-regardless of the critical/popular consensus. I learned that lesson with The Phantom Menace.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/20 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Well, I did say "almost any other sci-fi/fantasy film of the 80s"! Mind you this is all subjective, but IMO ROTJ is superior to Willow, Clash of the Titans and Legend (either European or American cuts, both of which are "Director's Cuts"), on par with Dragonslayer and Dark Crystal, but inferior to Conan the Barbarian and The Sword and the Sorcerer.
Meanwhile, ESB is better than all of those films.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/20 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Oh, I think Empire is one of the great American films. Like Pinocchio and Jaws, it's one of the few "escapist" works that could be called transcendental.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
5/20 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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I don't know, I'd rank Conan up there with ESB. Classic revenge story, informed with a true understanding of mythology and the ancient world. It kind of gets overlooked because its Arnold running around without a shirt and cutting peoples heads off but theres so much going on in that film.
There actually were quite a few good fantasy films in the 80's, but I don't think any of them match ESB, pictorially, thematically, or in terms of story and character. Films like Legend may match it in visuals and cinematography but it doesn't have an ounce of character, while films like Willow have the characters but lack originality and imagination. ESB is sort of the king of the hill that has it all, while every other film is missing something in some manner.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/20 4:05pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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^ ^ I agree that CTB is more-or-less equal to ESB; to this day CTB is highly underrated for the reasons you state, zomb. It's actually a masterful film on many levels. But ESB has the edge, because... well, darnit, it's ESB.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/20 4:47pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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>>CTB is highly underrated
But the sequel SUCKS. Run away!!! Run away!!!
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
5/20 5:16pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
>>CTB is highly underrated
But the sequel SUCKS. Run away!!! Run away!!!
Indeed. Its a shame Milius got away from the series because he envisioned a trilogy with a purposeful arc for the character, with the brooding King Conan seen in the epilogue finally emerging at the end of the third film. Milius explains some of his ideas he was going to explore on the DVD, but the way Conan The Conquerer played out it would never work in as satisfying a way.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
7/8 10:40am
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Gotta love internet fandom. Any review that isn't positive and/or glowing about one's beloved film/game/show is automatically a review that 'sucks' and the reviewer is 'far from reality'.
Well, we humans are a hypocritical lot, are we not?
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
7/8 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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zombie posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
>>CTB is highly underrated
But the sequel SUCKS. Run away!!! Run away!!!
Indeed. Its a shame Milius got away from the series because he envisioned a trilogy with a purposeful arc for the character, with the brooding King Conan seen in the epilogue finally emerging at the end of the third film. Milius explains some of his ideas he was going to explore on the DVD, but the way Conan The Conquerer played out it would never work in as satisfying a way.
John Melius just scares me. Anyone ever see Hearts of Darkness?
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
7/8 2:39pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Oh yeah. From my understanding, Milius was itching to fight in Vietnam, but got rejected because of his asthma. Between Dirty Harry, Conan the Barbarian, and Red Dawn, he's made a career of letting us know how he felt about that.
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
7/8 2:56pm
Subject:
RE: Two 1980 reviews of TESB for your enjoyment
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Yeah. I thought it pretty humorous how both Lucas and Coppolla rolled their eyes at the ideas Milius wrote and wanted in Apocalypse. It's some of the best material in the doc.
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