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Topic:
Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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DantSolo
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:02pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I don't think that Vader had any intention of being brought back to the light, up until the final moment. I think he had complete confidence that he could turn Luke and they could overthrow the Emperor. I think that was his entire plan, hence his comment to Luke, "It is too late for me." He truly believed that. Then at the final moment, seeing his son reject the darkside, spare his life and sacrificing himself, Vader saw things more clearly than he ever had. And I believe that the Emperor's plan to do away with Vader, although not a surprise to him, also contributed to his decision.
But I don't think that before that moment he had any intention, even subconciously, of returning to the light.
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:48pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I wouldn't say he had any feelings as specific as returning to the light, but I think that the appearance of Luke in his life interfered with his Sithly feelings. It's difficult to imagine that the final act of returning to the light would not to some extent be the result of an accumulation of thoughts and feelings, consciously or otherwise.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
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SaberSlash
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:45pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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Lucas set the ROTS duel between Dooku and Anakin to mirror the duel between Luke and Vader. In both duels, the Sith were overconfident and believed they were in control. In both duels the younger, less experienced but potentially more powerful jedi (Vader was a shell at that point of his old self) unleashed an unexpected barrage of controled anger that overwhelmed the Sith due their perceived feeling of control of the duel to that point. The difference between the two duels is that Luke was better equipped to master his anger and reconnect with the "good side" that Yoda preached.
So IMO, Vader was toying with Luke a bit and controled the duel until he tripped the anger switch on Luke, much like the duel between Dooku and Vader.
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Put your weapon away, I'm mean you no harm.
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Caibe
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
5/14 12:26am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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No, I don't think Vader let Luke win... he was very merciless at that point.
He changed to good mode after Luke refused to kill him.
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-polymath-
Title: SFF:F/TV Trivia Host
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:14am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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It's possible that Vader was only saying that to appease the Emperor but Vader of all people knew not to underestimate the Emperor's power. He ran an awful risk lying to the Emperor...the risk that the Emperor would discover his true feelings for his son. I'm not saying that Vader wasn't lying...just that there's a high degree of risk involved.
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SFF Films & TV Trivia Contest: Subject is "Serenity/Firefly"
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JEDI-RISING
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:26am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I think what Luke said was true. Vader was conflicted. Add to that he set Luke off about his sister, and the fact that Luke was young, and strong, and he lost.
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"Mostly because of my father i guess"
"Ah, father. Powerful Jedi was he ,mmm, powerful Jedi."
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JediGlass
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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Alpha-Red posted:
I'm pretty sure that Vader knew he was no match for Luke from moment they met on Endor's moon, if not before.
I disagree with that completely. I dont even understand how Luke was able to keep up with Vader. Annikan was the chosen one and every Jedi/Sith knew it. In ROTS, Palpatine even said that Annikan would grow to be stronger and more powerful than all of us and that was without any darkside training. No one ever could match Vaders strengths. I just wish we knew exactly how strong Luke was with the force compared to his father because he did start at a late age compared to most Jedi Masters.
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:51pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I think the conflict within Vader weakened him and that was how Luke was able to defeat him. Also, the mechanical Vader was never able to scale the heights of power that Fully able Vader would have.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:31pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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Vader went into the fight knowing he would either have to kill Luke or die. It was a Dooku match all over again except Vader didn't believe the lie Sidious had told him (we'll turn him together) because he'd already experienced it in the Dooku match and knew what Sidious was all about.
If Luke was to win - Vader knew Luke could only do it by turning to the dark side and drawing on that easy wealth of power - he had the potential Anakin had had in his youth and Vader knew it. But Vader would have to goad him into it.
The only alternative was to kill Luke, by not goading him - just a force choke or whatever. This would have pissed Sidious off, but with Luke dead, Sidious wouldn't have been able to do anything about it and he needed Vader so he wouldn't have killed him for it.
Vader took the route that he knew would wind up in his death, he goaded Luke to embrace dark side power and he knew Luke would likely be able to take him out - which happened. Then he knew Sidious would tell Luke to kill him - which happened.
Then Luke threw a wrench in the works and the Anakin in Vader was like "copy that" - and Sidious loses.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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JEDI-RISING
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:03pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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Yes Anakin was the chosen one, but he was badly damaged in ROTS. He never could become what he could have been. Lucas has said that. Luke had the potential to be that powerful too. So basically from a power standpoint, Luke is young and healthy, Anakin is in his 40's, and not at powerful as he was in ROTS.
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"Mostly because of my father i guess"
"Ah, father. Powerful Jedi was he ,mmm, powerful Jedi."
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-polymath-
Title: SFF:F/TV Trivia Host
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:43pm
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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Anakin's weakness is attributable to two things:
1. He's part machine.
2. He's conflicted in his commitment to the Dark Side viz a viz Luke.
Vader's strength as a Dark Lord of the Sith flowed directly from his dedication to the Dark Side, ostensibly in his ongoing effort to discover the mystery that Darth Plageuis discovered long ago. Once he learns that Luke Skywalker is the son of Anakin Skywalker, that changes everything. At that point he has something tying Anakin's soul to the light side of the Force rather than Vader going through life as a solitary individual bereft of any family. Just as his fear of losing Padme tore at Anakin and his commitment to the Jedi Order so too did the presence of Anakin's son tear away at Vader's commitment to the solitude of the Dark Side. This weakened Vader's powers and dramatically increased the likelihood that Luke would succeed in bringing Anakin back to the good side.
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SFF Films & TV Trivia Contest: Subject is "Serenity/Firefly"
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Freakzillawht2
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
5/17 6:57am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I have always known that Vader let him(Luke) win the duel on the death star 2.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/17 9:28am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I don't think that Vader let Luke win, but I don't think he was fully committed to the fight either. Once he managed to push Luke over the edge, he had no chance at all. I would love to see an alternate version of that battle(with improved fight choerography). The ESB duel was great looking and the ANH battle was a cool fencers duel(Dooku would have enjoyed watching that one), but I think that they took two steps back in the ROTJ duel.
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" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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Ray_Stantz
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
5/18 12:29am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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Is it just me or are people forgetting that Luke held back during the fight as well? Considering both of them didn't really have their heart in the fight, I think we can only look at the last part and go from there. From what I saw, Vader didn't let Luke win, but rather made a mistake and got in way over his head.
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Looking at Sidious' teeth, I can understand why he surrounds himself with British officers.
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Malikail
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
5/18 1:38am
Subject:
RE: Did Darth Vader let Luke win their duel in ROTJ?
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I'm not trying to be rude but the thread's title is silly.
Vader thinks to himself "My master wants me to test my son and push him, to turn him to the dark side, I think i'll let him win the fight. I'm tired of walking around in this iron lung anyway, besides how bad can death be, in my ghost form i get my real legs back."
I don't think so.
I also think it's ridiculous to suggest anyone would engage in a light saber duel and "let the other person win".
there is a word for that.
suicide.
I could see it being argued that vader was holding back, that he was toying with luke. I agree with that, but letting him win? no way.
by the way, to the original poster. Your friend is wrong, at the time of the duel on DS2 Vader is not more powerful than Luke. Vader is more experienced, properly trained, and he's a sith, but in no way is Luke out matched.
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how much greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope? - G'Kar
We wander but in the end there is always a certain peace in being what one is, in being that completely. The condemned man has that joy
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