| Author |
Topic:
Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
DarthButt
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '03
|
Date Posted:
7/15 5:59pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
- Date Edited:
7/15 6:15pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthButt
|
|
Alright guys, let's take a breather. We've got a rule here called "Discuss the films, not the fans". Please agree to disagree, and don't get personal about it.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
7/16 5:59pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
- Date Edited:
7/16 5:59pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
|
DarthApocalypse posted:
Vader was in control of the duel 90% of the time, while Luke was in control 10% of the time. Watch the duel and tell me where you think that Vader was getting tired,frustrated and desperate and where Luke was winning the duel. At 1:15 Luke gets knocked on his ass. At 1:45 Luke gets disarmed, knocked down the stairs and forced into the pit. 2:30 and 2:58 are the only two times Luke is control of the duel. From 3:54 to 4:30 Vader is destroying Luke with his Force powers. From 5:10 onward Luke is running like hell. At 5:35 Luke gets knocked on his ass again. At finally at 5:54 Luke loses his hand. So please go through the duel and point out to me places a) Luke is shown to be winning the duel and b) where Vader is shown to be fatigued, frustrated and desperate when Luke was the one running like hell and the one constantly giving gorund. Give me the time in the video where your points are proven.
What a terrific Link - that made my night; I haven't watched TESB in a while. 
I would agree that Darth was attempting to convert Luke rather than kill him. I note again that Vader uses the same line he
used on Kenobi "don't make me destroy you." He's a one-track-mind kinda guy eh?  . I never really thought about it, but I guess Vader was lying when he told Luke that the Emperor had forseen Luke's ability to kill him - or Sidious was simply incorrect, because that would be Vader in the end.
Pulling the thread back on topic a bit, I would say that Vader was a maniac during the purge because there was a burning desire for vengence within him at the time. It arose from all he had lost and the Jedi had led him to the point in his life where he felt hed lost it all. Of course, Sidious had too, but since that was the boss, apparently Vader held that particular thought at bay. I think as Vader grew older he mellowed out and grew into his dark lord status. Everyone feared him, the few Jedi left were scattered, not using the Force much at all and for all practical purposes the Jedi were dead. So they were not foremost on Vader's mind. He still had it in for Kenobi and then of course Luke came on the scene and all kinds of new thoughts entered his mind. But during the purge, I think Vader was a mad man, cutting down Jedi left and right to assuage the torment going on inside of him which he blamed at least in part on the Order. The last thing he wanted was to see the Order revived, so killing them became a hot priority for him I would imagine.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
|
Date Posted:
7/20 6:51am
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
Kazanova posted:
He was unable to regenerate any of his limbs or heal himself substantially for less than a few minutes. He wasn't able to HATE enough, and that is the prime emotion of channeling the dark side.
So I don't believe he really grew stronger in the dark side.
I think he did indeed grow stronger. Lucas explains that Anakin could have become twice as strong as the Emperor, but that his injuries prevented him from doing so. Anakin had not already reached this level at the time of the Mustafar fight. It is potential power that Lucas is referring to. True, Anakin's injuries prevented him from reaching the potential of becoming twice as strong as the Emperor, but I don't think it prevented him from becoming stronger than he was at the end of ROTS. I think he grew stronger since his fight with Obi-Wan, but his growth in power plateaud off sooner than Palpatine would have liked.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
LemmingLord
Registered:
Apr '05
|
Date Posted:
7/20 7:11pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
So how is this all related to the jedi purge?
-----signature-----
LemmingLord
Criticise Me
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Robal_Krahl
Registered:
Dec '03
|
Date Posted:
7/21 3:10pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
Kazanova posted:
Watching the movies, it's hard for me to imagine Darth Vader hunting down PT-energetic Jedi all over the galaxy and engaging them in duels. The Expanded Universe has him doing this, but we're basically dealing with two different interpretations of a character.
My Vader is backed by a squadron of the most highly-trained troopers during his hunts. He's not a duelist, but a strategist. His suit doesn't allow for much mobility, so he has to utilize his mind more than ever while hunting the Jedi. He probably didn't even ignite his Sith lightsaber until encountering Obi-Wan in ANH. It makes that fight have a lot more depth.
What's the G-Canon of it?
What's your personalized fanon?
What do you infer from the movies alone?
Etc.
I have spoken to a couple of duelists over the past few years; one was a Fencer, and one specialized in using a katana. Both of them have stated on more than one occasion that the "twirly-flips" of the Jedi will harm more than help in an actual duel. They both state that you never turn your back on an opponent, that you never let your guard down, and that performing elaborate acrobatics when fighting with a deadly weapon is extremely foolhardy.
If the EU is to be ignored here, I would say that Vader came to this conclusion during the Purge. In a fight, the best way to go is to cause maximum damage while expending minimum effort. Seeing as Vader's lungs were severely damaged, it's logical that he would adopt such a philosophy.
I took a few Fencing classes about three or four years ago, and from what I recall, it doesn't take much effort to parry or block an incoming attack. Just a slight tap-and-push is all that's needed to redirect your opponent's blade. It's similar with the katana; a strategy adopted is to redirect your opponent's energy, to turn his power against him. He attacks, you redirect the attack to knock him off balance. Since Vader's movement was restricted, it makes sense that he would use such a fighting style.
Then there's the psychological factor of the character himself. Imagine yourself as a Jedi, coming face to face with the man who not only destroyed your friends, but betrayed your entire Order, killed kids, and was once the Chosen One destined to save your people. This is no push-over... this is the guy who is supposedly more powerful than Yoda himself. I don't know about you, but I'd certainly have some trouble thinking straight in that situation, training or no training. Vader's not just a fighter... he's one of the best the Order had. Up until ROTJ, only one Jedi had ever beaten him: Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Personally, I like to go with what the EU says (but nix the "Vader's less powerful because he lost his limbs" gimmick). But if it's to be ignored in this argument/debate/what have you, I'd go with the above explanation.
-----signature-----
Dark Lord of the DLC
We do not ask for your poor, or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick.
It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be sought by us.
Anti-Karen Traviss. Anti-Mary Suelorians.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
7/21 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
I like the idea that the reason the OT Jedi are less flashy is because they realized it wasn't necessary too. It also explains why Mace fights in a much simpler way that's more like the Jedi of original trilogy than Obi-Wan and Anakin. The only Jedi that would really have a reason to fight that acrobatically would be Yoda given that most critical areas of his opponents body would be out of his reach if he didn't jump around.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
7/21 5:02pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
- Date Edited:
7/21 5:03pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
|
Robal_Krahl posted:
(but nix the "Vader's less powerful because he lost his limbs" gimmick)
I know that's the impression given by the Vanity Fair quote, but I don't think it's exactly the way to look at the situation. The real issue seems to be cyborgization and the life-support/"iron lung" aspect.
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Robal_Krahl
Registered:
Dec '03
|
Date Posted:
7/21 10:23pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Robal_Krahl posted:
(but nix the "Vader's less powerful because he lost his limbs" gimmick)
I know that's the impression given by the Vanity Fair quote, but I don't think it's exactly the way to look at the situation. The real issue seems to be cyborgization and the life-support/"iron lung" aspect.
It's been stated, by Lucas if I recall, that Vader was less powerful because of the events on Mustafar. I personally disagree with this, and think it would be better if the whole concept of the Force's relationship with people kept to what Yoda said in ESB: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
-----signature-----
Dark Lord of the DLC
We do not ask for your poor, or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick.
It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be sought by us.
Anti-Karen Traviss. Anti-Mary Suelorians.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
7/22 10:10am
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
Agreed. I think the Prequels put more of an emphasis on the more physical side of the Force as opposed to the mystical side emphasized by the OT(though the OT does have some of the physical side as well.)
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
7/22 11:51am
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
Robal_Krahl posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Robal_Krahl posted:
(but nix the "Vader's less powerful because he lost his limbs" gimmick)
I know that's the impression given by the Vanity Fair quote, but I don't think it's exactly the way to look at the situation. The real issue seems to be cyborgization and the life-support/"iron lung" aspect.
It's been stated, by Lucas if I recall, that Vader was less powerful because of the events on Mustafar.
His potential was more limited than before. But the point is that it's not really an issue of lost midichlorians.
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
|
Date Posted:
7/23 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
Midis are but one factor in a beings ability to use the Force. Even if the midis remain constant throughout life (which it makes sense that they do) other factors can still reduce effectiveness. Lucas likes to talk about how the OT duelists are old men and cripples, so those are two examples.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Robal_Krahl
Registered:
Dec '03
|
Date Posted:
7/23 4:13pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
DarthDuckie posted:
Midis are but one factor in a beings ability to use the Force. Even if the midis remain constant throughout life (which it makes sense that they do) other factors can still reduce effectiveness. Lucas likes to talk about how the OT duelists are old men and cripples, so those are two examples.
This is yet another reason why I think Lucas has no idea what he's talking about. Yoda was 870-some-odd years old. He's not exactly young, and he's flipping around faster than any other Jedi seen on-screen, so old age doesn't appear to be a factor. Hell, he even walks with a cane.
-----signature-----
Dark Lord of the DLC
We do not ask for your poor, or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick.
It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be sought by us.
Anti-Karen Traviss. Anti-Mary Suelorians.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
|
Date Posted:
7/23 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
Well, I think GL is just desperately trying to justify the disparity between the duels in the PT and OT when he makes that comment. I think old age would play a part though. Yoda seems to have to really focus in order to generate the same Force ability that he used to. Sure he does some spectacular fighting, but for the most part he hobbles about on his cane. I think that illustrates that his midi count is the same as it ever was, so he has the same Force prowess, but that because of the physical constraints of age, he has to be more selective about when he uses it.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Robal_Krahl
Registered:
Dec '03
|
Date Posted:
7/23 4:52pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
That, right there, is an excellent way of putting it. If Lucas went with that theory, it would be something I'd accept. His current "explanations," however, are easily disproved by his own movies. Methinks he should take a leaf out of the fans' book and put a little more thought into them.
-----signature-----
Dark Lord of the DLC
We do not ask for your poor, or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick.
It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be sought by us.
Anti-Karen Traviss. Anti-Mary Suelorians.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
|
Date Posted:
7/26 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Nature of the Jedi Purge
|
|
Oh, God no. We'd have Mandalorians and tough chicks everywhere.
-----signature-----
"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
